Analysis of Oracle's patent suit against Android's use of Java

[The Gorn]

I think Google and Microsoft compete for mastery of business and the office. Microsoft owns the product software arena and the general server software market. Google pretty much owns web search, paid online advertising, and web applications as a mass market thing. Both want more than they have now, both want to invade the other's territory and both have tried to do so - and both will keep trying to do so.

So at present, and as it has been for years, they are side by side in their own domains, but each wants to take over territory now claimed by the other.

IOW, simple, plain old world domination.

[lorb]

lol.  That's all it is.

Google is a startup.  Yeah right, and so is MS, IBM, and HP.  What's good for them is good for America, dang nab it!

[JavaMouse]

Google has done something different - they replaced the JVM with their Dalvik VM but kept the Java language.

I don't see any problem with both approaches.

Me neither, unless there's a patent violation. According to this article, it's not Google's use of Java which is the problem, but their development of Dalvik:
http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9180703/Google_calls_Oracle_lawsuit_baseless_vows_to_fight_it?taxonomyId=13
I still haven't found a good explanation of the issue.

[Peter Gibbons]

The C++ of 1998 - proprietary and expensive Rogue Wave C++ libraries, MFC, and inconsistent use in industry - was crap and I hated using it then. Since then, widespread practices such as the use of "smart pointers" and container classes and STL have homogenized how C++ is applied. The C++ of 2010 is a quantum leap over the C++ of the 90s.

In 1995 I was working in tech support for C++ vendor.

I was 4 hours a day on the phone dealing with frustrated C++ users.
When there were no calls I was browsing the net and found this tiny little language called Java still in beta form.

After playing with it for a while and reading the Sun's sales pitch I became convinced that Java will displace C++ as the dominant language.
A few months later I quit my job and became Java Consultant 

You may call Java 'a churn' but it did wonders for my career. ( I have to admit that I started from very low point. )

In 2002 and 2003 I went back working with C++ ( by coincidence ). I agree with you that at that time the compilers were better and STL was very nice to work with. I would imagine now in 2010 C++ is even better.
I have also looked into Qt and it's nice.

However back in 1995 when people were talking about C++ they actually meant MFC - the so called "Macro Foundation Classes" - and I am happy I ditched C++ and moved on. Java and especially the JVM also improved a lot during the following years. So it's not like C++ was the only one making progress.

Bottom line: I will ditch Java / JVM today if I found other language / platform that is more promising.
Alternatively I will work with C++ on a promising product where C++ is the best choice.

Today I like Scala on the JVM. Not because I expect to get work with it any time soon but just because I enjoy using it. And since all Java libraries could be accessed from Scala - user's investment is preserved. So Scala is advancing the state of the art while it is very practical too.


P.S. I am very aware of the fact that many companies burned millions of dollars trying to re-write their C++ desktop applications in Java during the early years and failed miserably. Corel was one of them. Adobe also had crappy Java version of their Acrobat Reader at one time. This was the real 'churn'.

My personal record is much better - there is a lot of Java code that I have written since 1999 that is still in production.

[JavaMouse]

Google has a "hacker" culture in which impractical, ivory tower pursuits are encouraged.

I think the rest of the world calls this "research and development". Google is one of the rare software companies with both enough capital to pay for it and the dedication to actually do it on a regular basis.

I thought the death of Bell Labs signaled the end of R&D.  It's considered a luxury that can't be afforded in the cutthroat modern business environment? I looked around for evidence of this.

I found an article from 2008 which claimed Google's R&D budget was $2B about 13% of revenues.

This year, MS is spending $9 billion or 15% of its revenue on R&D.

According to this article, "At Bell Labs, real R was only about 7%" (of revenue? The article doesn't say).

Once upon a time, Bell Laboratories employed about 25,000 people in R&D, and was usually considered the premier industrial R&D lab in the world. It was part of the Bell System, when one could say … “monopoly money is really nice.”

Not sure what to make of this.  R&D is not dead, I guess, but most of it comes from companies which are practically monopolies.

[JavaMouse]

Bottom line: I will ditch Java / JVM today if I found other language / platform that is more promising.

Me too. The language is not a religion, it's a livelihood (I will not change my handle to ScalaMouse though).

My personal record is much better - there is a lot of Java code that I have written since 1999 that is still in production.

That's probably a nice feeling. I do know of at least one application that I wrote in Java which is still in production, but it's not used a lot.  Other than that I'm not so sure.  Some of my early FORTRAN code might still be in use.

[Richardk]

If Sun 'open sourced' Java and granted a perpetual license then I don't see any infringement in principal but I guess it really comes down to the wording of the documents.

I like Oracle's DB but they are out for one thing and that is to makes lots of money. I can't see any good coming from them "owning" Sun's products. From Sun's website, oops I mean Oracle's, I see this, which includes Java, MySQL and everything else they have:

All software downloads are free, and most come with a Developer License  that allows you to use full versions of the products at no charge while developing and prototyping your applications, or for strictly self-educational purposes. You can buy products with full-use licenses at any time from the online Store or from your sales representative.

This clearly makes me believe that if I use Java, MySQL, VirtualBox, etc in a "production" environment then I must "buy" the product.

Putting up a FOSS based website with MySQL on the backend? Better have a license since it's now in "production". That's how it reads on the surface.

OK, with that said, if you're a company making money then I think you should be buying your tools at some point if you're making a profit.

I wonder how muddy the licenses have become? We all simply click on "Agree" when installing the software but does anyone actually read that stuff?

I recall one job where the client picked the tool but then asked me to review the license. After reading through most of it, I said I'm not your attorney but I do see issues based on what you want to do then they got upset with me. Talk about shooting the messenger.

[TechTalk]

While all the news sites have posted this story, I must admit that I haven't read much about what is actually going on here.  That said, I believe JavaMouse is correct in that this lawsuit has to do with Google's development of the Dalvik VM.  I read a short news story a while back that mentioned that Google did this because Google and Sun couldn’t agree on Java ME licensing fees.  Google may have created Dalvik for other reasons as well; however, as I stated already, I am currently ignorant of what is actually going on here.  I suppose the Slashdot crowd probably knows as much as anyone else what the boring details of this lawsuit is really all about.

[lorb]

The tone in these articles is so ridiculous and hacker-centric.  Java is a vast API, perhaps the biggest out there, that has been built over many years.  You don't just come up with something new as if it's a stick of chewing gum.

I don't know how Scala uses the Java API, but the Java API is tens of thousands of code and more depending on how many extra parts that they are using.  If Scala doesn't use any of this, then maybe that's one reason why they didn't choose Scala.

This stuff wasn't built in 5 seconds for free with no blood, sweat, tears, food eaten and coffee drank.  Yeah, a bunch of hip teenagers made it in a weekend, that's the ticket, we'll just switch to something else like it's nothing, there is no piper to pay.

The "it will offend the hacker community" credo makes me want to gag.  The "it will offend the hacker community" credo makes me want to gag.  Oh, I'm sure without even looking that a bunch of /.ers will get their panties in a wad over this.

Oh my gosh, ./ers are basically taking a reasonable view on all this.

If it were "not a big deal", and all they wanted was the language itself, then why didn't they use C# instead of Java?  I'm thinking it's because it is a big deal.

[The Gorn]

You don't just come up with something new as if it's a stick of chewing gum.

I don't know how Scala uses the Java API, but the Java API is tens of thousands of code and more depending on how many extra parts that they are using.  If Scala doesn't use any of this, then maybe that's one reason why they didn't choose Scala.

This stuff wasn't built in 5 seconds for free with no blood, sweat, tears, food eaten and coffee drank.  Yeah, a bunch of hip teenagers made it in a weekend, that's the ticket, we'll just switch to something else like it's nothing, there is no piper to pay.

The "it will offend the hacker community" credo makes me want to gag.  Oh, I'm sure without even looking that a bunch of /.ers will get their panties in a wad over this.

WELL SAID! Spot on!

[lorb]

 

Here's my axe to grind.  If Java isn't being paid for by somebody, then what is the financial incentive for Oracle to keep developing it, other than basic and sql libraries that it uses?

This wouldn't be such a big deal if it weren't for the hotshot blogger programmers of some notoriety being the first to pull a "Paul Revere" sound the alarm, that our precious Java libraries which are no longer considered cutting-edge/hip are getting funding slashed to them - hence immediately jumping to "the next big thing".  Well, maybe if someone actually _paid_ for Java (and who has more disposable cash than Google?) then some of these other libraries might not get their staff cut as much.

[The Gorn]

I agree. It's too early to tell what is going on. It seems like Google and Oracle are just bargaining through posturing.

[Peter Gibbons]

Looking at some of the patents mentioned:

The disclosed system represents an improvement over conventional systems for initializing static arrays by reducing the amount of code executed by the virtual machine to statically initialize an array. To realize this reduction, when consolidating class files, the preloader identifies all...
Inventors: Frank Yellin, Richard D. Tuck
Assignees: Sun Microsystems, Inc.

A method and apparatus are provided for maintaining and enforcing security rules using protection domains. As new code arrives at a computer, a determination is assigned to a protection domain based on the source from which the code is received. The protection domain establishes the permissions...
Inventor: Li Gong
Assignees: Sun Microsystems, Inc.

A method and apparatus for pre-processing and packaging class files. Embodiments remove duplicate information elements from a set of class files to reduce the size of individual class files and to prevent redundant resolution of the information elements. Memory allocation requirements are...
Inventors: Nedim Fresko, Richard Tuck
Assignees: Sun Microsystems, Inc.

Systems and methods for increasing the execution speed of virtual machine instructions for a function are provided. A portion of the virtual machine instructions of the function are compiled into native machine instructions so that the function includes both virtual and native machine instruction...
Inventors: Lars Bak, Robert Griesemer
Assignees: Sun Microsystems, Inc.

They are all related to the Java VM and class file structure.

According to Wikipedia:
The Dalvik VM was created by a single developer: Dan Bornstein who most likely have never seen the JVM internals.

It's still possible that some of the patents were infringed and that's why I mentioned Mike Pall and his LuaJIT compiler that is very fast and uses some innovative techniques that the author claims have not been patented.

( By the way both Dalvik and LuaJIT are register based. The JVM is stack based. )

Google has already given Mike some money to work on his stuff it would be easy to incorporate some of the techniques he is using to avoid the infringing parts in the JIT.

Right now there are still .class files somewhere in the Android application creation chain. Google can bypass the .class files and directly use the .dex files.

Finally:

Eventually Google will have to stop using the Java name and compiler. This is where Scala comes into place. Right now Scala can target the JVM and the MS CLR (.NET). Google can help the Scala team to target Dalvik as well.

I believe when all is said and done - Google will have completely independent stack just like what happened after the Sun vs Microsoft fight over Java.

In the process they may have to pay some ( or a lot of ) money to Oracle.

So like it or not we will end up with even more fragmentation:

Oracle and IBM:    Java and JVM
Microsoft:             C# and CLR
Google:                Scala (most likely IMHO) and Dalvik

P.S. Here is an interesting article from Miguel de Icaza:

http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2010/Aug-13.html

who is also arguing somewhere that Google should use Mono, but I don't think this is ever going to happen.

[I D Shukhov]

Here's my axe to grind.  If Java isn't being paid for by somebody, then what is the financial incentive for Oracle to keep developing it, other than basic and sql libraries that it uses?

This wouldn't be such a big deal if it weren't for the hotshot blogger programmers of some notoriety being the first to pull a "Paul Revere" sound the alarm, that our precious Java libraries which are no longer considered cutting-edge/hip are getting funding slashed to them - hence immediately jumping to "the next big thing".  Well, maybe if someone actually _paid_ for Java (and who has more disposable cash than Google?) then some of these other libraries might not get their staff cut as much.

Look at some of the "software patents" that Peter Gibbons listed.  Some are improvements to how JVM processes bytecode.  E.g.

...improvement over conventional systems for initializing static arrays by reducing the amount of code executed by the virtual machine to statically initialize an array...

The problem is that if companies patent software "methods" it stifles the evolution of our craft.  I think this is the reasoning behind FOSS. I have to admit, however, I'm not sure where to draw the line.  Maybe it's like obscenity:  "I'll know it when I see it."   

[lorb]

The problem is that if companies patent software "methods" it stifles the evolution of our craft.

So just about every language using a virtual machine gets sued then, including prior languages and those of MS?  I don't think that is going to win any court battles.  It is common-sense, even if it's not common.  At the end of the day, they didn't pull the Java language out of thin air, they were just hoping nothing would get said about it.  Just calling it Java probably means there could be a fine.

I know, the patent game always makes it seems like the sueer has patents on air and breathing, but in the end, I think most people know that stuff is a game and there is a bigger picture.  It's just that Google could probably win their case, if they could prove that these patents are invalid.  I think that's why the patent battle word-wise, always makes it seem like they patented the internet or similar.

Then there are people who argue that they don't respect patents in China.  Well, they just might throw your dog on a BBQ in China, too!  That's the thing about patents, people abstract it to the point where SC0 is going to come knocking on your door for using Linux (not that anyone likes SC0!)  One of my bosses favorite sayings comes to mind, from the Wizard of Oz "I'll get you my pretty, and your little dog too!"  We think of ourselves as that little dog.  Does anyone think those judges weren't thinking "Man, these guys are really full of themselves"(?).  There were some pretty harsh pronouncements against them in some of the verdicts.  The law is there to protect society, not simply to make a bunch of weasels rich.