Author Topic: What Does Toyota's Recall Problems Mean for US Auto Industry?  (Read 230 times)

The Gorn

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What Does Toyota's Recall Problems Mean for US Auto Industry?
« on: January 30, 2010, 02:58:37 pm »
I really think that this will temporarily (at least) level the playing field, particularly for upper range but not luxury car buyers (IE, SUV buyers and the like.)

I can't believe Toyota's clueless and tone deaf response to this fiasco. In a year they could be the "Hyundai of 1987" brand in the US if they don't get their act together and both say the right things and respond rapidly with appropriate engineering changes. The one executive being interviewed on the street wearing a surgical mask was the low point of ineptitude of image awareness.

IMO this is a "gift" to the US auto industry and they need to use it wisely and not fritter away the opportunity to regain market share.

I'm not particularly rooting for Toyota's brand to be tarnished - my Toyota has served me incredibly well for 20 years (!) - but it surprises me how inept and flat footed them have been.

I suspect that the ineptness and tone deafness is a product of the Japanese culture of compulsively saving face.
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Origisaurus

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What Does Toyota's Recall Problems Mean for US Auto Industry?
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2010, 04:44:58 pm »
After 40+ years without serious quality/safety problem, Toyota management has no experience with this sort of thing.  So far they have made one correct move - a voluntary recall rather than waiting for NHTSA to order a recall.  This doesn't preempt a mandatory recall, but is a good PR move, showing good faith for the public's benefit and raising the PR bar for NHTSA.

Not so much a boon for US manufacturers.  More for the other imports, especially Asian.  The average Toyota buyer holds as an article of faith that US cars are inferior and will turn to the imports first.  Of course, Chevy already has an aggressive ad campaign, and they may use Toyota's problems to knock the competition.
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Aussie

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What Does Toyota's Recall Problems Mean for US Auto Industry?
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2010, 05:48:42 pm »
It strikes me that the Jap car manufacturers are now where the US ones were in the 1970s.  A previously dominant position, now being undercut by new upstarts in cheaper-labour countries.  The fact that their population has been falling...not the rate of increase, the actual population total **.....is not exactly going to help their heavy industry, no matter how automated it is.  You can't man factories with 80 year old, and the Japs utterly refuse to bring in a multi-cultural immigration policy.

**  A falling population can happen for many reasons.  Here's Steyn's view on why it's happening in certain countries at the moment. (My bolded underlining).

Isn’t 32 a little old for an allowance?

It’s not so much that ‘The Grown-Up’ has died but that he’s born later and later—if at all

In creaky melodramas of the old school, there came a moment when the plucky heroine would announce her intention to go ahead with some ill-advised courtship, and her father would threaten to cut her off without a cent.

Easier said than done. In Italy, a court has ordered, upon pain of having his assets seized, Giancarlo Casagrande of Bergamo to pay his daughter an allowance of 350 euros—approximately $525—every month. Signor Casagrande is 60. His daughter Marina is 32. She was supposed to have graduated with a degree in philosophy eight years ago but, though her classes ended way back at the beginning of the century, she’s still working on her thesis. So Signor Casagrande is obliged to pay up, either in perpetuity or until the completion of Marina’s thesis, whichever comes sooner. Her thesis is about the Holy Grail. Which it’s hard to see why Marina would have any use for, given that she’s already found a source of miraculous life-transforming powers in Papa’s chequebook.


Marina is what they call in Italy a “bambocciona,” which translates, roughly, as “big baby”—the term for the ever-growing number of young adults still living at home. Not their home—with a spouse and young kids and putting out the garbage and repainting the stairs and so forth—but at their parents’ home, in the same bedroom they’ve slept in since they were in diapers.

There was, as usual, a momentary spasm of ineffectual outrage over the judge’s decision against Signor Casagrande, whose very name is mocked by this demographic trend: the casa would seem much grande if only Junior would move out. But in Italy they rarely do. Renato Brunetta, the Minister of Public Administration and Innovation, announced his support for a law requiring children to skedaddle out of their parents’ pad when they turned 18. That would certainly be an Innovation but might well put strains on Public Administration: right now, seven out of 10 adults aged 18-39 live with their folks. Indeed, Signor Brunetta blushed to admit that he himself had lived at home until he was 30. “My mother made my bed up until I left and I am ashamed of that,” he confessed. Italy increasingly resembles the old Benny Hill sketch in which he and his dolly bird are bikers who can’t find affordable housing.

“Why don’t you move back in with your parents?” suggests the BBC interviewer.

“We would do,” says Benny, “but they’ve moved back in with theirs.”

Indeed. Sixtysomething Italians ordered to pay “child support” to thirtysomething kids should move back in with their nonagenarian parents and sue for a monthly allowance backdated to the early ’70s.

Italy’s bamboccioni have their equivalents around the developed world. In Japan, they’re called parasaito shinguru—or “parasite singles,” after the horror film Parasite Eve, in which alien spawn grow in human bellies feeding off the host until they’re ready to burst through. In Germany, they’re Nesthockers with no plans to move out of “Hotel Mama.” In Britain, they’re KIPPERS (Kids In Parents’ Pockets Eroding Retirement Savings). In Canada, we have the phenomenon but without any disparaging term: by 2006, 43.5 per cent of adults aged 20-29 lived with their parents. Between 1981 and 2006, the percentage of men in their late twenties living at home doubled, and the percentage of women near tripled. By 2006, 31 per cent of Canadian men aged 25-29 were still sleeping in their childhood bedroom each night.

In 2007, Diana West wrote a book called The Death of the Grown-Up. Complacent types might assume she was speaking metaphorically. But in much of the Western world the condition is very literal—and increasingly, as we see in Italy, de jure. It’s not so much that “The Grown-Up” has died but that he’s born later and later, if at all. A couple of years back, I attended a conference in Queensland in which an Australian demographer explained the differences between life then and life now. In the old days, there were, broadly, two phases of life: you were a child until, say, 13. Then you were a working adult. Then you died. Now there are four phases: you’re a child until, say, 12, 11, 9—or whenever enlightened jurisdictions think you’re entitled to go on the pill without parental notification. Then you’re an “adolescent,” a term of art now stretching well into middle age and of which a 32-year-old taking eight years to complete a thesis on the Holy Grail would appear to be a near parodic example. Then you work, after a fashion. Then you quit at 65, 60, 55, 52, whatever you can get away with, and enjoy a three-decade retirement at public expense. Functioning adulthood is that ever-shrinking space between adolescence and retirement.

No society can make this math add up. The economics of demographics used to be relatively simple: in a traditional agricultural society, by the time you got too worn and stooped for clearing and plowing, you hoped to have enough able-bodied 13-year-olds to do it for you. Today, most developed nations have managed to defer adulthood and thus to disincentive parenthood—quite dramatically so, if the judgment against Signor Casagrande holds. It’s no coincidence that the countries most prone to bamboccioni and parasite singles are the world’s oldest and fastest aging, with the lowest fertility rate: Japan, Germany and Italy are already in net population decline. Remember the ’80s? Japan was buying up every American icon from Rockefeller Center to Columbia Pictures and TV viewers were bombarded with commercials warning that they’d soon be speaking Japanese down at the shopping mall. So what happened? Well, the yellow peril got wrinkly—and thus a lot less perilous. Over half of Japanese women are still unmarried by the time they’re 30. Japanese maternity wards are going out of business. Japanese toy makers such as Tomy, recognizing that children’s toys is a deadsville market in a land without children, are diversifying into talking dolls with 1,200 preprogrammed phrases that can serve as companions for the elderly: they’re the grandchildren you’ll never have.

In Italy, the problem of the bamboccioni is often attributed to a lack of “affordable housing,” which certainly has something to do with the postponement of adulthood. Acre for acre, America is the cheapest developed country in which to buy a four-bedroom home on a nice-sized lot with plenty of space for plenty of kids. If you’re wondering why Canada’s fertility rate qualifies it for honorary membership of the European Union and why 75 per cent of the Dominion’s population growth comes from immigrants, look at how we live: yes, in part because of climate but largely because of Trudeaupian social engineering and immigration trends, Canada’s population is more concentrated than America’s. As Americans have decamped to suburbs, exurbs and beyond, Canada has become more urbanized. If you were seriously interested in tackling the country’s structural deformations, you’d want to provide some way of encouraging still fecund young couples to move from their cramped accommodations in Toronto and Vancouver to the dying hinterland.

But it’s hard to look at the Western world’s young middle-aged and think it’s purely a phenomenon of the property market. Marina Casagrande is an especially sublime embodiment of Western demography. Free citizens of advanced democracies are increasingly the world’s wrinkliest teenagers—a development Hilaire Belloc predicted quite explicitly in his book The Servile State way back in 1912, before teenagers had even been invented. If you’re a 30-year-old Japanese gal or 38-year-old Italian guy, why move out of the house? You’ve got all the benefits of adulthood (shagging, boozing, your own TV) with none of the responsibilities (cooking, laundry, property tax bills). We’ve created a world in which a 37-year-old Italian male can stroll into a singles bar, tell the chicks he lives at his mum and dad’s place in the same bedroom he’s slept in since he was in grade school—and he can still walk out with a hot-looking babe. This guy would have been a laughingstock at any other point in human history.

And every progressive politician says we need more of it. Barack Obama wants everybody to go to college. Why?
Well, why not? Most would-be employers already regard a U.S. high-school diploma as utterly worthless, so why not do the same to a bachelor’s degree?

It isn’t very difficult. In most Western countries, there aren’t enough working people engaged in genuine wealth creation to pay for a society organized on the human right to endlessly deferred adulthood—and, as Signor Casagrande discovered, eventually someone has to. But, more to the point, a society in which it becomes the norm for 40-year-olds to climb the stairs every night to their childhood bedroom, the same one that once had the teddy-bear wallpaper and the Thomas the Tank Engine coverlet, will not merely be a land that fails to produce the innovators necessary to create such wealth, it will be a world that does not make men, or women, in any meaningful sense of those terms. There used to be an English expression, “kippers and curtains.” In Europe today, it’s KIPPERS—and curtains.


pxsant

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What Does Toyota's Recall Problems Mean for US Auto Industry?
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2010, 05:52:02 pm »
It will definitely help Ford.  Ford has stepped into the right meadow muffins the past couple of years and come out smelling like a rose.  But I doubt whether it will help GM or Chrysler much.  Maybe a slight GM push with the ads lately on the Chevy, which are pretty good.

The Gorn

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"Typical" Toyota buyer preferences
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2010, 06:11:23 pm »
Quote from: Origisaurus
Not so much a boon for US manufacturers.  More for the other imports, especially Asian.  The average Toyota buyer holds as an article of faith that US cars are inferior and will turn to the imports first. 
Perhaps. In my case it was direct experience with some GM and Ford made lemons. That's not "faith", that's experience.

But I think you otherwise make a valid point. Yeah, a typical Toyota buyer is much more a potential Honda, Hyundai, Kia, or Nissan purchaser than he is a potential Chrysler, GM or Ford buyer.

I think that today, that thinking may be a little irrational - but given the history of quality issues of domestic models it makes some sense. The US vehicles that seem to do the best are the seriously "under engineered" ones like plain old trucks.

IE, I've read that some Nissan models like the Murano have some electrical and computer system issues that dealers don't seem to address well, and that's like a $35K vehicle. Well, there's a Japanese model that may be troublesome.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2010, 06:20:39 pm by G0ddard B0lt »
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Aussie

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What Does Toyota's Recall Problems Mean for US Auto Industry?
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2010, 10:12:19 pm »
"Yeah, a typical Toyota buyer is much more a potential Honda, Hyundai, Kia, or Nissan purchaser than he is a potential Chrysler, GM or Ford buyer."

There was a time among older Australians, and I would think Americans too, when buying a Japanese car would have been as anathema as Banzai-ing Emperor Hirohito.  Ted Bullpitt, proud owner of an (Australian) Holden Kingswood used to refer to his brother as a traitor to his country.  Why?  Because he gave information to the enemy during the war?  No, because he became a Datsun dealer after it.  "Pickle me grandmother!", as Ted used to say. 

TRexx

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What Does Toyota's Recall Problems Mean for US Auto Industry?
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2010, 10:21:03 pm »
Today I got a eMail from my local Chevrolet, Cadillac etc dealer. It seems GM has announced a special deal for anyone who currently owns or leases a '99 or newer Toyota or Lexus.  They get an additional $1,000 or 0% financing for 60 months on selected GM cars.

Looks like GM is taking advantage of a situation.

Origisaurus

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An out-of-date factoid
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2010, 11:05:24 pm »
Some years ago, the new-car registrations in Michigan were 95% domestic, 5% import.  And in California, the reverse, 5% domestic, 95% import.  The land of fruits and nuts.

To this day, you can't park a foreign car on any UAW parking lot.
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The Gorn

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What Does Toyota's Recall Problems Mean for US Auto Industry?
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2010, 11:06:59 pm »
This was a significant factor in the market in the 1960s and 70s. It was in decline in the 80s. By '90 it was fairly socially acceptable even in strong union towns like Dayton to buy a Japanese car. Basically as the population of WWII veterans aged the market opened up to Japan.

My dad and some of the fathers on our street when I was growing up served in WWII. So I know the feeling well. The idea of a "Jap" car made their heads explode.

They would get GM employee discounts on the cars that they bought. Then they would bitch at defects and problems caused by hourly workers deliberately sabotaging the vehicles, like leaving coke bottles inside the doors, and leaving the rear bench seat on our new '74 Nova unattached to the floor.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2010, 11:13:19 pm by G0ddard B0lt »
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I D Shukhov

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Once burned twice shy
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2010, 09:34:04 am »
GB wrote:  "I think that today, that thinking may be a little irrational - but given the history of quality issues of domestic models it makes some sense. The US vehicles that seem to do the best are the seriously "under engineered" ones like plain old trucks."

It might be irrational, but our brains are wired to lock in memories of painful experiences.  It takes many positive experiences to erase a single negative one.  The Japanese wisely took Deming's advice make quality the top priority.


Anything that won't sell, I don't want to invent.  Its sale is proof of utility, and utility is success. – Edison

Origisaurus

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What Does Toyota's Recall Problems Mean for US Auto Industry?
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2010, 10:12:38 am »
Quote from: G0ddard B0lt
They would get GM employee discounts on the cars that they bought. Then they would bitch at defects and problems caused by hourly workers deliberately sabotaging the vehicles, like leaving coke bottles inside the doors, and leaving the rear bench seat on our new '74 Nova unattached to the floor.
Of course this was a management-caused problem.  During that period, GM was experimenting with Assembly Division.  The car divisions (brand name) designed, engineered and marketed, while GMAD built the cars.  I could give you a couple chapters of Drucker on why that didn't fly.  The classic story is of a Nova coming off the line with Buick trim on one side and Olds trim on the other.

OTOH, look at Ford's "Quality is Job One".  This is as much an internal message as an advertising slogan.  That's another area where GM has been trailing the field.  Here's another catchy saying by W. Edwards Deming, circa 1980, "You can't inspect quality into the product".  "Dr. D" was a familiar figure in Dearborn for a few years in the early 80s.  After he'd spent 30 years or so showing the Japs how to build quality.

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Aussie

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What Does Toyota's Recall Problems Mean for US Auto Industry?
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2010, 03:48:14 pm »
Didn't the Japanese have a zero-defect policy the way NY got a Zero-Tolerance policy ?

Origisaurus

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What Does Toyota's Recall Problems Mean for US Auto Industry?
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2010, 04:50:06 pm »
Quote from: 1Aussie1 1Aussie1 1Aussie1 Oi Oi Oi
Didn't the Japanese have a zero-defect policy the way NY got a Zero-Tolerance policy ?
Actually, ZD was a Ford internal slogan circa 1980.

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TRexx

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What Does Toyota's Recall Problems Mean for US Auto Industry?
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2010, 05:38:06 pm »
Quote
Actually, ZD was a Ford internal slogan circa 1980.
The "Zero Defects" concept has been around for a long time. It was adopted by a large number of companies, especially those in the aerospace and defense industries. And like most "Quality" programs was little more than a slogan.

My father worked for a company called Kearfott which made inertial guidance systems and every couple of years management trotted out some new set of buzzwords and policies to show that this time they were really, really serious about quality. These programs were accompanied by all sorts of gimmicks -- buttons, posters, cash awards for meeting some arbitrary goal etc. Everyone made quality their top priority,  until it got in the way of production.

At one point, probably in the early 70's, when they were officially the Kearfott Division of the Singer (sewing machine) Company,  someone designed a logo that read "KD = ZD". They had a special flag made up and flew it proudly in front of the main entrance, right next to the Stars & Stripes, to motivate the workers and impress visitors. 

My father has a nice photo of it, flying upside down.


Aussie

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What Does Toyota's Recall Problems Mean for US Auto Industry?
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2010, 03:18:25 am »
"My father has a nice photo of it, flying upside down."

Upside down being, of course, the international sign of distress.


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