"Dream (Windows Desktop) System" - Please Critique

[The Gorn]

Here are the most significant components of a system that I am putting together.

I was inspired by Slinky's TigerDirect system quote. I decided not to go with the same system because that system deal is with an Asus motherboard. I built my mother in law's computer with an Asus barebones kit a few years ago and the mobo went out *twice*.

Main points are: I am using the Intel i7 920 processor; the memory will be 12 GB (!) DRAM. The display adapter (this mobo appears to not have built in video) has two DVI connectors for a possible second monitor (IE, split desktop.) Plus Windows 7. And I prefer a non-glitzy case without external effects lights (I have such a case now and some of the lights are going bad and flicker.)

My intent is to build an absolutely state of the art, current system. Usually I cheap out and go one or two steps less than the current "best", but in this instance the price gap would only be about $500 between a halfassed system and this system.

I have some company profit I want to use for this by Dec. 31st.

Please critique my component choices. Thanks.

[jbucks]

Goddard,

What about Drives?

If you can, I'd recommend some good SAS drives.  They're blazingly fast.

Jim

[The Gorn]

I updated my wish list with the drive that I am considering.

I checked some stuff out and it looks like SAS (Serial Attached SCSI, I presume) is 10x as expensive per byte than SATA.  This really appears to be a server level product.

Example: http://www.newegg.com/Pro...e-_-22-116-059-_-Product

$299 for a 300 GB drive, and that is the cheapest SAS option that Newegg has.

I think that there will be enough caching and in-memory operation going on with 12 GB main RAM that I won't notice the difference anyway.

[The Gorn]

I'm interested in any possible incompatibility of these components or anything in general that anyone knows that may be negative about any of this stuff. Thanks.

[Richardk]

Looks good to me.

Since it's a production box, what about backup's? I'm wondering if adding an eSATA port would make sense if backing up to an external drive or are better options available?

[DarkHumour]

You can get a sas controller (Tom's hardware did an article on a budget pci-e one) and attach sata drives to it.   SAS controllers are universal and much more robust if you plan to use any kind of raid, even simple raid 1 or 0.

Sata controllers can only use sata drives.  A channel can also only be "split" one time I think while with sas you could go bezerk with expanders, even with sata only drives in the mix.

I plan to go with a sas controller and sata drives and slowly introduce a sas drive into the mix (rebuilding the arrays and phasing out each sata drive).  I think my first system will have a sole sas drive for the o/s and a raid 5 array of sata drives for data.

Scsi costs more, sure.

But Sata drives are wet paper bags in comparison of punishment they can tolerate.  SCSI is meant to be 24x7 and SATA is something like 8x5 (not all day, not every day).  Putting SATA into a raid is kind of a catch 22 I know (Setting them up for redundancy to compensate for failure rates but at the same time working them *harder*).

I've sat in on some webinars about SATA raid and they bragged about how much better it was that (parallel) scsi but they completely ignored SAS at the time.  Probably because they didn't offer a SAS controller.  

I really wanted information on mean loss of data / failure rates.  If sata options are so much cheaper but they burn out (even under warranty) it is still a pain in the you know what to replace when it happens off hours.  Does the cost of downtime or support overtime make up that much for the up front cost of scsi ?

The other advantage of SAS is dual porting - either making a "wide connection" (which information is scant) or for redundancy as a drive could be connected to two controllers.

Back in the 90s I became a scsi "true believer" when faced with the difficulties that IRQs created.  I thought it was dumb to go with IDE/ATA controllers because you only got 2 devices per IRQ while a wide (or higher) SCSI card could give you 7, 15, or 30 devices per IRQ.  (SAS can do 128 with expanders...)

Anyway, stepping down from the pulpit...check "CDW outlet" for even better deals on hardware.  Good luck with your GonzoBox.

DarkHumour

[The Gorn]

I found this: http://www.provantage.com...t31000640ss~7SEGB03W.htm

Is this an example of what you are talking about, jbucks and/or DH?

It is more than 2x the price of the el cheapo consumer SATA drive but you have put just enough fear of the Lord in me with regards to losing data to want to address this.

[jbucks]

Goddard,

Yes, this is the sort of drive I'm referring to.  It's on the lower end of the spectrum, but still decent.

Anyway, why skimp on drives when you're building up your "gonzo" machine?  That's where a lot of the system bottlenecks will be at.  This direction will reduce some of those.

Jim

[The Gorn]

Can you please direct me to a suitable PCI controller card for SAS?

I am having *real* trouble identifying one under $200.

>> why skimp on drives when you're building up your "gonzo" machine?

Because of: driver incompatibility and possible lack of support for a new OS; unfamiliarity with the options; and/or obscurity. As well as added cost. We are already (with a $200 controller and a more expensive drive) $300 above the SATA drive option.

I am already outside my comfort zone with this drive option. I know that Windows 7 and the other stuff will "play" with a SATA drive.

Keep in mind, too, that you are a super-duper system administrator with brass balls and I am but a humble "power user" who is really struggling to understand where/how/how much/why/etc.

[benali72]

Finally, a system that meets Vista's true system requirements....

[DarkHumour]

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/sas-adaptec-highpoint,2101.html

http://www.cdw.com/shop/products/default.aspx?EDC=1816670   (highpoint controller)

http://www.cdw.com/shop/products/default.aspx?EDC=1939375   <--- this is the card I liked but I do not have a motherboard with pci-e (yet).

I've been loyal to LSI Logic since 2001 since the similarly priced Adaptec scsi card refused to boot in my motherboard when a hard drive was attached it to it.   The Adaptec solution was to buy a different card. (no firmware patch, no fixes...) So I did buy a different card - another brand.

(cdw outlet) has a bunch of stuff.

I should add that there are "rumours" that manufacturers understate the performance of their sata drives to "justify" the cost of the enterprise level (scsi) drives.

[jbucks]

Gads - my experience with SAS/SATA cards is diametrically opposite Dark Humor's.

I've had them in mostly server class machines (but have added one to my workstation at the office).  I've been able to load various flavors of *nix, Windows Server, and WinXP onto them without any problems.  They're treated just like the older SCSI cards.  Hit the F6 and have the driver floppy handy on O/S loadup.

I would recommend an Adaptec controller.  The one's I've had, have worked with any drive (SAS and SATA) that I've thrown at them.  You might want to consider a time-phased approach to moving to SAS.  Get a good SAS controller card now, and add (replace) SATA drives with SAS as you can / want to.

I just went to the Adaptec web site and found many (from MSRP of $190 - bottom end #1405, up to a MSRP of about $1k - top end #5805Z).

http://www.adaptec.com/en...cts/Controllers/Hardware

I would recommend staying *AWAY* from LSI / 3Ware (3Ware was bought by LSI) cards.  Their setup interfaces are BAD.

Hope this helps (and *NO*, I'm not a super-duper sysadmin with brass nubbins).

Jim

[The Gorn]

I would recommend an Adaptec controller. The one's I've had, have worked with any drive (SAS and SATA) that I've thrown at them. You might want   to consider a time-phased approach to moving to SAS. Get a good SAS controller card now, and add (replace) SATA drives with SAS as you can / want to.  
 
  I just went to the Adaptec web site and found many (from MSRP of $190 - bottom end #1405, up to a MSRP of about $1k - top end #5805Z).  
   
  http://www.adaptec.com/en...cts/Controllers/Hardware

Ok, I found some places with the Adaptec 1405 at around $140. (In the process I had to bone up on the compatibility issues of PCI Express x16 vs. x1, x4 etc. What a zoo out there. Half length cards that use part of larger card slots. Sheesh.)

So tell me again - why do I want to start with a SAS card - even if I am just using a crappy consumer SATA drive - instead of the onboard SATA controller? What is this buying me, exactly, besides another $140 or so expense?

One thing I do see from your description of the boot process is that it reminds me of the RAID 0 configuration I originally had for my current desktop. I had to boot from a floppy first whenever I used the Windows installation CD or if I needed recovery console. It was a total royal pain.

[jbucks]

This method allow your to time phase your expenses.  Pay some $$$ now (for the controller card that can be used for both SAS and SATA drives), and then some other $$$ later for drives (as your finances allow).

Yeah, the PCI / PCIX can be confusing.

On Windows, the booting is not from a floppy, just in the process of the boot, you tell the O/S that you have a driver disk that needs to be loaded.

HTH, and if you see no value in this - feel free to ignore any and all of it.  I just thought that if you were building up a gonzo system, you would be interested in the fastest drives you could get.

Jim

[The Gorn]

Thanks, Jim. That was clear.

I'm kind of thinking of just ignoring this issue until I feel more comfortable with the tech aspects. Like I said, I had a RAID setup on Win XP a few years ago that required me to use a driver boot diskette when I need to run something like Recovery Console from a CD. So I think I get what the issue is with "external" controller drivers. I checked Adaptec's support page for the 1405 and they claim they have a Windows 7 driver, albeit support is not in the Windows 7 DVD, so it seems like the diskette would be necessary in this instance, like you indicated.

One more question: would changing the disk and disk controller for Windows trigger another activation or invalidate the current activation? (IE, do you think I could upgrade the controller+the drive in the future as far as Windows is concerned?)