Author Topic: Unteachable Ignorance  (Read 711 times)

David Randolph

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Unteachable Ignorance
« on: February 06, 2017, 07:20:05 AM »
There are people who are so sure of themselves, that they can't learn. Here is an example from the DFW Craigslist in the computer gigs section.

======================================================
Need someone to help develop and design million dollar app (Lewisville)

I am looking for an individual to help me get my well thought out app idea out of my head and into my hands!

 I basically need someone who knows how to develop a simple trading platform (exchange only) for my app, as well as knows how to get my simple, fresh, designs done. I prefer it to be done in swift coding for IOS.

 I of course am willing to pay, but I don't want a 30 year developing Veteran that charges a house mortgage. More rather, I would like to have someone wanting to add a million dollar app to help build their portfolio, BUT KNOWS how to get the trading platform (exchange) written. I don't plan on it taking more than 3 weeks if my partner is serious.
======================================================

He is looking for someone who has experience developing an iPhone trading app but wants to do it for little pay? And he thinks that it can be done in 3 weeks? And what about the back end server?

This is someone who is unable to learn.

Part of interacting with the general public is knowing when to not try to educate someone.

The Gorn

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Re: Unteachable Ignorance
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2017, 08:43:40 AM »
Awesome case study. That's not only hilarious, it's very common.

The majority of wanna-bes at the very low end who want to launch software products reason like this. A very large proportion of small tech vendors who look for employees or freelancers think exactly like this.

The low end types never, ever stop to consider that someone with these capabilities will build their own valuable solution and sell it themselves, rather than sell their time for pennies.
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ilconsiglliere

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Re: Unteachable Ignorance
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2017, 09:12:08 AM »
Yeah its my wet dream to build someone else an application so you can get rich. All for the glory of you and being able to put it in my portfolio.

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Re: Unteachable Ignorance
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2017, 01:40:40 PM »
Yeah that "job offer" is very typical for ads posted by brilliant idea-men: guys with world changing ideas. All they need is a minor issue of a tech dweeb to implement it for them, which is a simple matter that shouldn't take very long for any "good coder". Been seeing these proposals for 30 or 40 years now. This guy's been around the block though since he notes that the real shops he contacted wanted "a mortgage" ($150-$400k) to write the app. And they're right, that's probably a reasonable price for what he wants.

datagirl

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Re: Unteachable Ignorance
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2017, 02:24:25 PM »
And at a bargain basement development effort, you can bet the security component will work GREAT!  ???  Sheesh!  ::) 

unix

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Re: Unteachable Ignorance
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2017, 03:44:01 PM »
are you sure it's a serious inquiry and not a joke?
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David Randolph

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Re: Unteachable Ignorance
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2017, 06:53:29 AM »
It is a joke to those of us who know better, but I suspect that the post was serious. I've run into too many people who think that way. That is why I titled the thread as "Unteachable Ignorance". They are convinced that they are correct and we developers are just holding out on them.

The Gorn

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Re: Unteachable Ignorance
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2017, 07:02:06 AM »
It is a joke to those of us who know better, but I suspect that the post was serious. I've run into too many people who think that way. That is why I titled the thread as "Unteachable Ignorance". They are convinced that they are correct and we developers are just holding out on them.

Totally and absolutely. This thinking is out there and you'll run into it constantly in the gig economy.

It's also by far the biggest component of positive responses to any marketing that we do. If you are a small operator like one of us, and if you advertise and market and put yourself out there, THESE are the people who constitute most of the inbound traffic and initial "yes" responses.

They're all thinking "you're small like me, so I'll forcibly make you be cheap for me."
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Re: Unteachable Ignorance
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2017, 12:33:57 PM »
To be fake there'd have to be a giveaway, a wink to those in on the joke. There wasn't one. It was a completely legit normal looking request we've seen a hundred times before.

The Gorn

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Re: Unteachable Ignorance
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2017, 01:25:21 PM »
Corporately employed types here who've never freelanced: Gee, why does this guy ask for so much for so little pay? That's weird. That must never happen that much in real life. If I ever freelance, which I never have, ever, I will be absolutely immune to hearing such offers that tear down my self-esteem. This is like science fiction.

Savvy freelancer types who have been out there in real life on the streets: I had five of these fuckers approach me last month. Even worse than this guy.

 >:D
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Re: Unteachable Ignorance
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2017, 04:06:16 PM »
Yup.

TechTalk

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Re: Unteachable Ignorance
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2017, 09:24:46 AM »
Quote
Part of interacting with the general public is knowing when to not try to educate someone.

I believe that this attitude is common not only with big ideas type of people, but with many business owners/decision makers as well. I bet the folks that work in the point-of-sales software industry and other types of software niches encounter this type of ignorance/attitude on a daily basis from businesses that either they contact or with ones that contact them.

The Gorn

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Re: Unteachable Ignorance
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2017, 02:10:09 PM »
Quote
Part of interacting with the general public is knowing when to not try to educate someone.

I believe that this attitude is common not only with big ideas type of people, but with many business owners/decision makers as well. I bet the folks that work in the point-of-sales software industry and other types of software niches encounter this type of ignorance/attitude on a daily basis from businesses that either they contact or with ones that contact them.

I agree completely with this.

I think this is why there's such an enormous cultural divide between sales/marketing and engineering in most technology businesses and why both sides disrespect the other so much.

- You have to sell things.
- The customers you're selling to generally don't understand or respect the level of technical challenge inherent in what they want.
- Salespeople do "whatever it takes" to make sales to keep everyone employed. To do otherwise would risk new sales activity. Customers won't appreciate additional clarifying information - telling them how much challenge is involved in a project would confuse and turn off customers.
- Sales people see handsome career rewards from operating this necessary way. This indicates to them that the world of hard, grinding work of an engineer is a stupid way to make a living. And that the better the engineer the stupider he is because he's throwing himself on a sword just to give the salesperson a great living.

Meanwhile,

- Engineers truly aren't appreciated for their hard work or occasional sacrifices. (witness the turd with the Craigslist ad.)
- Salespeople and marketers as much as possible segregate engineering into its own silo so that customers aren't offended by the frank talk and allusions to hard work coming from engineers.
- This is pretty much necessary because customers WOULD be offended to know that engineers felt that they worked that hard on something so trivial, self evident and menial that any stupid Indian could sling.  >:D

In short, the way businesses HAVE to manage engineers by shoving them to the back of the house and telling them to keep their God damned mouths shut and to not say ANYTHING unless spoken to. While the salespeople are dancing around with their high incomes and nice cars.

A rough statement of the way it is but that's the way it is.

Considering what we build for customers and our employers, engineering is truly one of the worst career-payback fields and one of the most demeaning work fields conceivable. Almost every other category of worker is at least marginally respected more relative to their contribution.

Yo yo yo, keeping it real!  :P
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TechTalk

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Re: Unteachable Ignorance
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2017, 04:46:58 AM »
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...don't understand or respect the level of technical challenge inherent in what they want.

Yes, that. Since the majority of companies are not very large, I was thinking just plain old "sticker shock".

For example, instead of thinking about a technophobic, cautious, tight with the money small business owner think of a small company that owns say a dozen liquor stores or rent-to-own stores or coffee shops or some other type of thriving business, ... that needs or wants to upgrade their very old and outdated POS software and the associated hardware. The decision maker is probably saying to him/herself "What? I cannot believe these guys (i.e. a software vendor or software development firm) wants 1.2 million dollars just for some new hardware and one off-the-shelf software program!".

David Randolph

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Re: Unteachable Ignorance
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2017, 06:41:02 AM »
This is why the best sales people use a simple "how long does it take to pay off this investment". They weed out most of the people out there as they are not able to think in terms of return on investment. But those that they sell to, this sales person will go through and show the prospect why investing that much money in a new POS system will be a good investment.

But, to the regular "tire kicker", the sticker shock is just part of the interaction and why it is best to keep the interaction short.