Thoughts on podunk wasteland

[unix]

GD here makes some interesting points but I wanted to examine this in more depth. Forgive me for being repetitive.

Looking at the affordability index, DC, where I am now does not score well at all. Neither do all the cool, hip and IT-rich places like Silicon Valley and New Jersey, etc.  The house prices still look like telephone numbers.

Maybe my personal situation is different. I am renting right now but honestly cannot bring myself to buy some RE as the prices are still too scary. RE went up 200-300% and deflate 30%, at most. I think it has a ways to go before it even levels out.  The bubble got inflated to huge dimensions.

I am considering the idea of  saving some 'tokens' and just buying a place in some "podunk wasteland" with a much higher affordability index. I mentioned Milwaukee only as an example, it's a large city but not so large as NYC/DC/etc. 
Indianapolis is another place you can buy a house for 100K. If I saved enough, I could probably swing it without going into debt, or hardly at all. Versus running here like a hamster in the wheel?

I am acutely aware there are no serious "jobs" in those areas but even a 50K/year gig would advance me farther than here, since I would not have to pay rent/mortgage (not for long anyway) and here, rent consumes a huge chunk of my income, not to mention the constant stress level.  No matter how much you pay, you still need to pay more.  I feel like I am building nothing permanent. 4 years in the 'District' have gone by and I haven't advanced one inch, back to where I was in 2006, except a little older and a little more tired and sick of it all.

... I would look a LOT harder to find something a LOT better and preferably not in a podunk wasteland.

Are you familiar with West Virginia? Try Appalachian rust belt. When I have stayed there, the biggest local business advertised on local TV was SSI claims attorneys and trial lawyers. WV has no economy besides tourism and a smattering of bronze age industry.

It's total podunk. IE, you mentioned Milwaukee. Why would someone in IT go to Milwaukee unless they had family there? Charleston will be worse, actually. It's a smaller city with even less of an economy.

Mark my words - if you make a move like this - in 7 months or 16 months when the gig ends and you are settled in, this gig will end and then you will have to find another contract. Someplace else.

For once in your life, think of where you will be later on rather than just plotting to "escape." You have family responsibilities.

[The Gorn]

Here's my experience. And please don't make me feel that my effort explaining this was completely wasted.... I mean, I just want the idea to register and for you to at least consider it.

It's worth what you paid for it, it's the proverbial $0.02, YMMV, etc.

In general, in big cities with a big money industry (finance, closeness to venture capital, etc) there is the opportunity to earn multiples of what you could earn in a podunk town.

Also - the effort to simply stay employed is MULTIPLES in a podunk town what it is in a healthier market.

I'M SAYING THAT YOU MAY HAVE NO PROFESSIONAL JOB OPPORTUNITIES AT ALL AT TIMES IN A SMALL MARKET.

Example, provided in another thread by member Peter Gibbons:

====
http://seeker.dice.com/jobsearch/servlet/JobSearch?op=302&dockey=xml/f/6/f6afa115f3fc3d607c511679e3fbd7fe@endecaindex&source=19&FREE_TEXT=C%2B%2B+Trading+System&rating=99

Pay Rate: 200-500K+

Please send resumes to erosenthal@futuresgroupit.com or call 212-244-4220 and ask for Eric for more details.

Premier Investment firm is seeking Mid-Senior C/C++ Engineers to take a leading role in the ongoing design, implementation, and deployment of its high frequency trading infrastructure.

Candidates will be involved in all phases of trading systems development, including but not limited to, strategy, quant modeling, algorithm design, and infrastructure development.

Requirements:

- BS, MS or Ph.D. in Computer Science or closely related field, with a high GPA.
- Demonstrated experience working on the design, implementation, and deployment of large, complex software projects.
- High level of expertise in systems programming on UNIX and Windows.
- High level of expertise in a variety of programming languages, including C/C++, Java, and scripting languages.
- Financial experience is NOT required.

This position is ideally based in Jersey City or California. However, exceptional candidates can work from home or commute to the office 1-2 days per week.
Deo Meza
Futures Group IT LLC.
53 W. 36th St.
#602
New York, NY 10018
Phone: (212) 244-4220

Peter provided this to me as a possible fallback or at least an idea.

In MY area (Cincinnati), very strong C++ skills top out at $100K, IF you are excellently connected. If you're like me and you have no good local connections, ever, then we're talking tops of $60-70K. 

In the financial area in NYC we're talking a quantum above this, an integer multiple of the shitty demeaning pay that the typical backward Cincinnati employer would pay someone with my talents.

It could make sense for the right person to take this Dice listed job and fly home on weekends.

But here's my larger point: it's MUCH HARDER to be in a technology career in a small town. You have to be super f*cking man (IE, like I am, in a sense) to just hang on here.

And I know that it's NOT what you earn - it's what you keep. We both know that. But the problem of not being able to even locate a good professional position transcends that issue.

You think that a cheap cost of living will give you an advantage. It may. But the JOB will be a problem. A $100K house that would cost $450K in VA is a steal *only* if you can earn a professional salary consistently without periods of unemployment.

Why, after all, did you wind up in NOVA to begin with? Probably because you couldn't find an appropriate job in another, cheaper city.

That's my entire point to you. You may think you can subsist on a 50K job in podunk. Sure, you could. If it's even available. But it may come down to "paper or plastic" at Wal-Mart if your luck does not hold in such a town.

I know individuals in their 40s and 50s with strong programming skills who literally could not stay consistently employed in the greater Cincinnati-Dayton metro area, a region of about 2.5 million and who are no longer in IT in any sense of the word. They're either hard core unemployed, or they opened their own restaurant, etc.

Look for a better job in your current area. Leverage your knowledge of the area.

I know that this does not appeal to you because you are clearly in the mental mode of "escape". But finding a better job in the tech job rich DC area has to be many times easier than doing this scatter shot thing of looking across the country to see what borks have.

[The Original Henry]

Can't disagree with anything GB said, but I just wanted to chime in with some thoughts from the other side.

The trick to living in podunk is to be out of debt. If you're not living paycheck to paycheck it can be very nice to step off the treadmill occasionally and just take some time to yourself. Life isn't all about work, but it seems the closer you get to the coasts the more this takes over your life just so you can keep your head above water. This is no way to live either.

Life in podunk is a little slower and a little easier, but you have to put yourself in a position to take advantage of it or it is no better than anywhere else. Being out of work for while can be relaxing and refreshing if you're not desperate for that next paycheck.

[The Gorn]

The trick to living in podunk is to be out of debt. If you're not living paycheck to paycheck it can be very nice to step off the treadmill occasionally and just take some time to yourself. Life isn't all about work, but it seems the closer you get to the coasts the more this takes over your life just so you can keep your head above water. This is no way to live either.

Life in podunk is a little slower and a little easier, but you have to put yourself in a position to take advantage of it or it is no better than anywhere else. Being out of work for while can be relaxing and refreshing if you're not desperate for that next paycheck.

I have been living in Podunk for the last 20 years, and I fit some of your criteria - I'm out of debt (I have just a tiny mortgage that paid for a remodeling job) and I am introspective enough to appreciate down time when it happens.

Still, I say this - even if you have 0 debt, expenses go on, and you will still want things. Cars and houses and heating systems and appliances and septic systems wear out, and if you are independently employed, health insurance can be a back breaking financial burden even in a cheap cost of living area.

The only times in my life when I have been able to freeze most discretionary spending and save a lot is when I have been completely single (I mean not even a girlfriend).

The problem with Podunk is that it's not an interesting landscape if you're a smart person. I think that it requires special savvy and skill to make the best of a flyover country career life. For most people, the greatly added career and business opportunities of being in a financially healthy metro area more than make up for the cost of living increase.

The one "out" to this principle is to be able to conduct your business online or on a commuting basis.

Unix's past employment history, as described on these boards, is that he has moved from city to city, coast to coast, for brokered contracts, spent a year or two in each spot, and now he's in the Washington metro area looking to get out.

When I see someone move around a lot, and I speak from my personal experience in the past doing the same, they do not have a strong career or technical specialization that would allow them to drum up work wherever they are. They pretty much go where the offered job is. And that is exactly the situation Unix has had in his career, from all appearances.

I'd say Unix's best bet to improve his life is to get serious about improving his career and look for opportunities in the job rich area that he is now located in. And save money from that steady, non disruptive pattern of continuously employment to work toward a future move to Podunk.

I see this as a litmus test thing: if Unix can't find a job he likes in the area that he is in now, where there are plenty of opportunities to be had, then he surely cannot in Podunk. I'm quite adamant: he needs to stay put and optimize his career for a change.

[DarkHumour]

I think "podunk" would only fly if there was a technical university or military base nearby... but then it might be the city's biggest (as in ONLY) employer.  And Indianapolis' nickname is Indi-a-no-place and this was before the massive loss of jobs in the area.

No kidding about "no debt".    If I didn't have any debt I could maintain my current lifestyle with a $12-$16 an hour job. 

I often wonder if I would quit my job without a backup if I suddenly had no debt. 

Would/could I be happier doing something menial like barbacking again instead of having to deal with the mind game v1.2.3.4 path to employment while opportunities in technology are continually shrinking (for citizens anyway) ?

If you've got a hate-on for the city you currently live in, make sure you visit the one you intend to move to first.  May seem obvious but I never did.  I did not go to Seattle before I chose it as some kind of job-tech-life-salvation which it could never attain. Could any city ? And I did NOT have a job waiting for me when I arrived.  If I had gotten that tech support gig for the city of Olympia in 2005 then maybe...  I think there were 300 candidates for 2 openings.   

Maybe you could find a 'lesser' city near a large metro so that you can be more likely to find opportunities.  Naperville/Aurora is 40 or so miles west of Chicago for example....

Maybe usajobs.gov has something... If you're willing to jump through many hoops simply to APPLY.

I don't know anything about buying a house but I thought right now because of the sh*tty economy being tied to one in an area that has no employment opportunity is really killing the careers of professionals.  Somehow the notion of home ownership had become a liability instead of an investment.

My sister and family want to move to the midwest from Oregon. But can't... their house has been on the market for 25 months already....

I guess the companies are in those communities but the jobs no longer are.   I just imagined a factory but there are no people in it, only remotely controlled robot drones piloted by 3rd worlders.

I wonder if that image would make people understand what has happened to white collar technology jobs....

DarkHumour

[I D Shukhov]

The one "out" to this principle is to be able to conduct your business online or on a commuting basis.

Yeah, and I imagine online is tough.  I thought I might be able to learn a niche skill like Flex and earn enough money for a retirement income.   I took a look at freelancer.com and got a rude awakening -- e.g. multiple Gold Members from around the globe,  with high employer ratings, bidding what I make in about a day for non-trivial projects.

Nope, American workers have these choices:

1) Learn a high-level skill that must be done onsite on onshore like repair or national security.
2) Get to the top of the food chain in some profession that is not easily outsourced -- law, medicine, finance or anything that is highly creative.
3) An end-around approach might be to learn to live as cheaply as someone in a Third World country and then charge the same freelancer.com rates.  It might be possible, but I'm too old to try.  You'd also need a significant other willing to share in the adventure.   The problem is that even people who have ostensibly been successful in this approach have gotten money from other sources which aren't mentioned in their how-to books. Thoreau had no family and got an initial loan from Emerson. Or the Nearings of The Good Life fame: Scott Nearing was a world-class intellectual and renown orator, when that still meant something.  He went on annual speaking tours and wrote books.

[The Gorn]

Yeah, and I imagine online is tough.  I thought I might be able to learn a niche skill like Flex and earn enough money for a retirement income.   I took a look at freelancer.com and got a rude awakening -- e.g. multiple Gold Members from around the globe,  with high employer ratings, bidding what I make in about a day for non-trivial projects.

Nope, American workers have these choices:

This isn't exactly true. It's true only if you have no entrepreneurial abilities and no imagination.

I went to a convention last month that was filled with attendees whose primary means of support at middle and upper income US and Western European standards was by their own businesses, either with software or services.

When I say "no entrepreneurial abilities and no imagination" that's the realm of looking for work through online help wanted sites like freelancer and rentacoder type sites.

I mean the sites where one does absolutely no marketing, one expects to find "needs" listed in a neat directory format, and you apply for people's jobs and you have a rating score that says whether anyone decent will even talk to you.

That's where all of the Indians and other offshore types are with their pennies-per-hour rates. "Help wanted" in any context is always a traffic jam that favors the buyers.

But to get back to the thread topic, having these entrepreneurial skills is such a rare thing that you don't see it even on this board very often, and we're a smart bunch.

(Actually, that's not even true. Anyone can develop these skills. But having to earn a cash income usually overwhelms any effort you'd be able to make toward entrepreneurship. And "jobs" aren't friendly to entrepreneurs. Debt and excessive possessions suck because indebted consumers are too frantic about finding a job quickly to develop their own business. Our system runs on voluntary indenturement.)

Most everyone here wants a "job". That's what Unix wants. I don't think he has the entrepreneurial interests to make his living location somewhat irrelevant.

[I D Shukhov]

Ok, points well taken.  You're saying that freelancer.com and their ilk are the self-employed person's equivalent of a job seeker using job boards.

All entrepreneur books and job-seeker books like What Color is Your Parachute advise the opposite:  define your goal and research the market or company (for FTEs);  I think the path diverges here between entrepreneurs and FTEs -- an entrepreneur should develop and test a prototype, an FTE should start networking and try and find hiring managers.

The idea is to be goal and market-driven, not passively respond to ads.

I think I started off with the wrong premise:  "Learn a niche skill in order to create a retirement income."   A better starting point would be to "Find a target market and then determine what tools/technologies are needed to serve that market."

Yeah, and I imagine online is tough.  I thought I might be able to learn a niche skill like Flex and earn enough money for a retirement income.   I took a look at freelancer.com and got a rude awakening -- e.g. multiple Gold Members from around the globe,  with high employer ratings, bidding what I make in about a day for non-trivial projects.

Nope, American workers have these choices:

This isn't exactly true. It's true only if you have no entrepreneurial abilities and no imagination.

I went to a convention last month that was filled with attendees whose primary means of support at middle and upper income US and Western European standards was by their own businesses, either with software or services.

When I say "no entrepreneurial abilities and no imagination" that's the realm of looking for work through online help wanted sites like freelancer and rentacoder type sites.

I mean the sites where one does absolutely no marketing, one expects to find "needs" listed in a neat directory format, and you apply for people's jobs and you have a rating score that says whether anyone decent will even talk to you.

That's where all of the Indians and other offshore types are with their pennies-per-hour rates. "Help wanted" in any context is always a traffic jam that favors the buyers.

But to get back to the thread topic, having these entrepreneurial skills is such a rare thing that you don't see it even on this board very often, and we're a smart bunch.

(Actually, that's not even true. Anyone can develop these skills. But having to earn a cash income usually overwhelms any effort you'd be able to make toward entrepreneurship. And "jobs" aren't friendly to entrepreneurs. Debt and excessive possessions suck because indebted consumers are too frantic about finding a job quickly to develop their own business. Our system runs on voluntary indenturement.)

Most everyone here wants a "job". That's what Unix wants. I don't think he has the entrepreneurial interests to make his living location somewhat irrelevant.

[The Gorn]

The idea is to be goal and market-driven, not passively respond to ads.

It's totally for the best when you identify something that you want and move toward it.

Not for the best at all - actually kind of for the worst - when you are making a change just to try to escape something.

And yes, the renta-doer web sites are just job boards. You submit an offer to do someone's project and you're listed in a ranked list by bid, feeback rating, country of origin, and English skills. They all, every single one of them, work the same.

That kind of crap flattens out everything involving talent and skill as effectively as HR departments do on their own...

[I D Shukhov]

The idea is to be goal and market-driven, not passively respond to ads.

It's totally for the best when you identify something that you want and move toward it.

Not for the best at all - actually kind of for the worst - when you are making a change just to try to escape something.

To continue with a prison analogy, "move toward" could mean a rush for the fence, or JavaMouse's tin spoon metaphor.  The goal is the same: to be free.

Sometimes I think another way to be free, and maybe the  best way, is in your head -- through Stoicism, or a spiritual practice.  It's hard to do though, that's why most of us always think satisfying work will bring freedom and happiness.

[The Gorn]

Sometimes I think another way to be free, and maybe the  best way, is in your head -- through Stoicism, or a spiritual practice.  It's hard to do though, that's why most of us always think satisfying work will bring freedom and happiness.

I agree completely with all of this. For most real humans, a hybrid approach to the problem - optimization of your circumstances + introspection toward contentment - is the most realistic solution.

[JavaMouse]

Sometimes I think another way to be free, and maybe the  best way, is in your head -- through Stoicism, or a spiritual practice.  It's hard to do though, that's why most of us always think satisfying work will bring freedom and happiness.

It's certainly true that if your head's in the wrong place, you won't ever truly feel free (e.g. the multi-millionaire who still thinks he needs more money to be happy).

However, attempting to "fix yourself" so that you accept objectionable circumstances strikes me as giving up. I guess it makes sense if you have been banging your head against a wall for so long and nothing works.  Maybe I haven't been banging my head against a wall long enough.

Probably a combination of the approaches works best (i.e. work on your head space, but also attempt to dig your way out of your situation).

[David Randolph]

Economically, there are two ways to make money in podunk wasteland: sell something to the locals, or sell something to people outside the area. Most business is done locally. The vast majority of business transactions occur within 3 km.

If you want to make money off of the local market, you need to look at the economy of the area: is there enough money and will to spend it in the area to make a living? IT is not a need. That means that it can not be a major cash sink - people won't spend a significant percentage of their money on it. People will spend on services. That means that you will need to identify what the service needs of the people are and be willing to do that (instead of development). For example, I had an uncle who tried to sell business consulting to an area. He gave up after a few years because everyone he talked to just wanted someone to do their taxes. He managed to get only one or two clients for business consulting that whole time. (Yes, he had the staff to do the taxes, but didn't want to do it himself. To be able to sell it, he had to be willing to be enthused about providing that service.)

That leaves selling to people outside of your area. How do you package what you do so that it can be sold without you being physically at the customer's site five days a week? The answer is left to the reader as it will be custom to your personality and experiences.

[David Randolph]

Let's put some numbers to the question of podunk wasteland.

We have about 330 million people in this country. Of those,
    514,800 - software engineers
    394,800 - systems software engineers
    426,700 - computer programmers
      48,200 - self employed computer people
    532,200 - systems analysts
    339,500 - systems administrators
    120,400 - DBA's
    292,000 - network analysts
    209,300 - computer specialist - other
-------------
 2,877,900

(Numbers taken from a gov. site and are based on 2008 data.)

In other words, it takes 115 people to support one computer person of any kind. Notice that most of the people are analysts and administrators. It takes about 7,000 to support one self employed computer person.

I'll make a logic jump and state that it will take a population of about 50,000 to support someone like unix in a self employed basis. That is, provided that there isn't someone else already there that he would have to compete with. So, does the place in question have that many people? If not, how big of a radius would be needed to pull in that many?

[The Gorn]

We are probably wasting our time critiquing this idea at this point. He's not listening.