Sobering NYT Story about Apple and China and jobs

[benali72]

Clyde Prestowitz at Foreign Policy argues that China's industrial policy (and the U.S.'s lack of one) is the reason for Foxxconn.

Read his view at -- http://prestowitz.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/01/23/apple_makes_good_products_but_flawed_arguments

[John Masterson]

benali72,

WOW, great and insightful articles. Thank you for posting these as well.

"Apple's products still have a large U.S. government R&D content  (See: Siri, developed with 10 years of military DARPA funding by SRA...Science Research Associates...thus 'Siri')and I'll bet that the guy who says Apple has no obligation to help Uncle Sam does strongly believe that Uncle Sam has an obligation to stop foreign pirating of Apple's intellectual property and to maintain the deployments of the U.S. Seventh Fleet and of the 100,000 U.S. troops in the Asia-Pacific region that make it safe for Apple to use supply chains that stretch through a number of countries such as China and Japan between which there are long standing and bitter animosities.

In this context the comment in the article that Apple is the pinnacle of capitalism also struck me as anomalous. I mean, how would this no-obligation guy and his stock option and bonus baby colleagues feel about investing in those "incomparably scalable and flexible" supply chains if Washington decided to pull the fleets and the troops back to Guam, Hawaii, and San Diego?"

[Carrie Cobol]

Yeah, maybe the pay them, but they still sound like slaves to me.

[ArnoldW2]

The author wrote:

"Germany with its manufacturing base and export prowess is the U.S. of yesteryear, an economic power unlike any of its European neighbors.  It has thrived on principles America seems to have lost."

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-germany-middle-class-20120122,0,3874773.story?track=lat-pick

[choppedwood]

Another side of the story.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides

[Carrie Cobol]

I do wonder why they feel the need to roust a team out of bed for sudden new projects when since they have so many workers living at the company compound, can't they just do shiftwork 24x7x365 to allow people regular hours?  Somethings just not right there at Foxconn.

[TRexx]

I do wonder why they feel the need to roust a team out of bed for sudden new projects when since they have so many workers living at the company compound, can't they just do shiftwork 24x7x365 to allow people regular hours?  Somethings just not right there at Foxconn.

Perhaps the folks on the night shift were working on other projects, like building iPods. 

A friend who spent a lot of time in China helping IBM set up a manufacturing operation told me their attitude towards humans is fundamentally different from ours.  To a boss, a worker is a resource, just like a machine.  It's there to perform a function. Turn it on when it's needed. Throw it away when it has no further use.

 

[John Masterson]

I do wonder why they feel the need to roust a team out of bed for sudden new projects when since they have so many workers living at the company compound, can't they just do shiftwork 24x7x365 to allow people regular hours?  Somethings just not right there at Foxconn.

Perhaps the folks on the night shift were working on other projects, like building iPods. 

A friend who spent a lot of time in China helping IBM set up a manufacturing operation told me their attitude towards humans is fundamentally different from ours.  To a boss, a worker is a resource, just like a machine.  It's there to perform a function. Turn it on when it's needed. Throw it away when it has no further use.

I'm thinking that's no different than the U.S in traditional blue-collar factory work in past years. I am sure you can go into, say for example catfish or turkey processing plants in the South, and find people just slaving away on the lines.  Without OSHA regulations they would be in even worse shape. Just like The Jungle, Upton Sinclair's expose of the meat packing industry in the 1920s in Chicago. (By the way, it was reaction to that book that caused the launch of the White Castle chain: featuring white porcelain, spotless stainless steel, and the promise of pure, fresh beef in the little hamburgers).

[pxsant]

To a boss, a worker is a resource, just like a machine.  It's there to perform a function. Turn it on when it's needed. Throw it away when it has no further use.

Darned if that doesn't sound like corporate's attitude toward IT workers!

[The Gorn]

A friend who spent a lot of time in China helping IBM set up a manufacturing operation told me their attitude towards humans is fundamentally different from ours.  To a boss, a worker is a resource, just like a machine.  It's there to perform a function. Turn it on when it's needed. Throw it away when it has no further use.

I'm thinking that's no different than the U.S in traditional blue-collar factory work in past years. I am sure you can go into, say for example catfish or turkey processing plants in the South, and find people just slaving away on the lines.

I bet each of those workers are still much better off and treated much better than a factory worker at Foxconn.

Sometimes I get really tired of relating US practices to those of alien cultures like China as though we are just a round eyed version of exactly the same things. The practice of morally leveling the US to piece of shit countries that have no respect for individuals infuriates me.

(I am not arguing or attacking, this is just a different viewpoint.)

The US is not, has never been, and never will be "just like China". We have the Bill of Rights, we have laws, and we do not have a permanent party in power.

G** D***it, we are a more decent and fair country, period. (Ok, no snarking posts about that, guys. The US does "try".)

Maybe the US f*cks things up for extended periods as we did with the Indians and with slavery. But we as a country try to uphold human beings as we determine that our practices were abhorrent. China absolutely doesn't, and never will.

I suspect that Foxconn like operations won't survive more than 5-10 years, then the peasants will revolt in search of a more decent and humane life. Then it will be over for a business model based upon worker ants.

Besides, I have read commentary about Chinese manufacturers using humans instead of robots or PLC automation to be sitting in a chair (for example) and to press a button when something is needed to happen.

My God, let's talk about added value. China doesn't have it. They rip off our inventions and they do not invent fundamental technology. This is because their culture is focused on breeding compliant worker ants, not thinking humans.

Chuck Fina, really and absolutely. We don't need to emulate them, ever.

China is not going away any time soon, but the definitely have limits to scalability, and they critically depend upon a free and prosperous western world to buy their cheap crappy mass produced sh*t.

[DG9]

Besides, I have read commentary about Chinese manufacturers using humans instead of robots or PLC automation to be sitting in a chair (for example) and to press a button when something is needed to happen.

1) S/He has a job.
2) Is easily replaced.
3) 1.3 billion replacements available.

One way to keep down costs and keep everyone occupied.   Good job for the left end of the bell curve, we haven't figured that one out yet.   I know, except for sheltered workshops...

On the other hand there is The Most Danger Man in China.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/around-the-world-abc-news/most-dangerous-man-china-031811739.html

When filmmaker Alison Klayman was shooting the documentary "Never Sorry" about Chinese artist and dissident Ai Weiwei, she was struck by the irony that Chinese authorities would go through the trouble to install surveillance cameras in the home a man who lives his life so openly on his blog and Twitter.

"I kind of felt that actually in some ways, the openness was almost a protection" she said. The best way to prevent the government from using his secrets against him, was to have no secrets.

Klayman was on hand at this year's Sundance film festival in Park City, Utah to debut her documentary, "Never Sorry". She spoke with Christiane Amanpour to discuss the film and what she's taken away from one of China's most influential artists and activists.

"He sort of has this mass appeal and ability to really engage all different kinds of audiences," she says, "whether they're sort of tech savvy or into design or architecture or art."

"I was really won over by how genuine his, sort of, believe in the individual, sort of, value of life, the dignity of life, how everyone in China and around the world deserves that, and I think that's really a big motivator for what he's doing."

There may be hope.

[John Masterson]

Well I don't deeply understand the Chinese culture. Having never been there, I cannot really comprehend it or "grok" the average Chinese mindset.

Confucism is the big spiritual philosophy there. It as all about treating another as you yourself would want to be treated.

Clearly many people in management do not follow it!

I agree that the American catfish processing workers are most likely better treated than Chinese food processing workers.  The United States is a pretty darn great place, all things considered.

I think the furture is being created, worldwide, as we speak. And with the Internet, technology advancement at light speed, and global market interdependence...we don;t know what China or India or the United States will be like in 5 years. It's going to be one heck of a ride.

[The Gorn]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/26/business/ieconomy-apples-ipad-and-the-human-costs-for-workers-in-china.html?ref=general&src=me&pagewanted=all

IMO it's not a stable system.

[benali72]

The odd thing about reading how the Chinese workers are treated in China is that, in some ways at least, I was a Chinese worker for many years.

Now, as an outside contractor, I was never subject to any safety concerns or hazardous working conditions (a key difference!).

But I was certainly woken up at all times at night via my pager (or cell later in my career). I was expected to be on-call 24*7 for long periods. In doing support work I also was expected to work very long hours, whatever was required to get systems back up and running. I often had to work very long weeks depending on project needs. I routinely worked 50 hours/wk for years, and often had to work more at certain points in a project. Labor laws sure didn't apply as far as hours and OT or off-hours work went. So as an independent contractor I was a Chinese worker in certain respects. This was part of the reason companies would hire outside contractors like myself.

Welcome to IT!

[expat]

The US is not, has never been, and never will be "just like China". We have the Bill of Rights, we have laws, and we do not have a permanent party in power.

G** D***it, we are a more decent and fair country, period. (Ok, no snarking posts about that, guys. The US does "try".)

Maybe the US f*cks things up for extended periods as we did with the Indians and with slavery. But we as a country try to uphold human beings as we determine that our practices were abhorrent. China absolutely doesn't, and never will.

Absolutely. When someone (for example me) condemns some practice or other of the US government or American industry, Americans get ashamed, or defensive, or aggressive. I.e they DO care. Chinese tend to go quiet, and look puzzled.

Often the most powerful words I can find to criticise what I see as American wrongdoing are words of Americans. Almost anyone in countries like China who stands up for basic human rights is called by us a "dissident", by their government a "traitor", and often by their families as "missing". You have had your dissidents too, and real things for them to proclaim: but you listen. I  remember hearing Martin Luther King live, speaking against burning injustice in his country - and now within my lifetime he has a national holiday for his birthday. Don't wait to see such things in China anytime soon.