Author Topic: Young Person Wants To Become A "Web Developer" - Council Them For/Against?  (Read 2512 times)

I D Shukhov

  • CCF Winner's Circle - Supporter
  • Wise Sage
  • *
  • Posts: 6201
    • View Profile
PT is not offshoreable.  Another pro for it.

Be Prepared.

ilconsiglliere

  • CCF Winner's Circle - Supporter
  • Wise Sage
  • *
  • Posts: 2757
    • View Profile
PT is not offshoreable.  Another pro for it.

This guy already has all the professional training certs - the NASM plus others. The test is not easy. You have to have full blown human anatomy knowledge and know how all the parts work. And it requires periodic re-certification. He could easily transition into physical therapy or something related to it.

My fear for this guy is he will plunk down all this money and expect to land a 100K a year job right out of school and than be unemployed. Because frankly he is going to compete with the H1Bs and offshore guys if he focuses on generic web developer. I know a bunch of people who have tried this and failed. Hell at my current client I have met chemists and biologists that have moved into IT. Its been tough for them but they will get hired as analysts because they have domain knowledge.

The Gorn

  • I absolutely DESPISE improvised sulfur-charcoal-salt peter cannons made out of hollow tree branches filled with diamonds as projectiles.
  • Trusted Member
  • Wise Sage
  • ******
  • Posts: 21722
  • Gorn Classic, user of Gornix
    • View Profile
My fear for this guy is he will plunk down all this money and expect to land a 100K a year job right out of school and than be unemployed.

Tell him about the son of our church friends who lives in Chicago and who can't find a perm job as an expert UI/UX developer conversant in all of the latest toys. And the guy's worked with big brands like Discovery Channel.

I need to write or call that guy and get the skinny on this. I may have fresh perspectives to add to this thread after that discussion.
Gornix is protected by the GPL. *

* Gorn Public License. Duplication by inferior sentient species prohibited.

choppedwood

  • Wise Sage
  • *****
  • Posts: 2145
    • View Profile
Why not raise rates?  If he works for a gym they may set them for him and/or take a cut but it's a sure way to cut his hours or make more money.  This is also a pretty radical change.  What makes him good may not help him be good at the other.

As far as web development goes, it's as good as anything else, and better than a lot of areas in tech.  But, it's going to be awhile before he makes $100K, even in  a good market.

The Gorn

  • I absolutely DESPISE improvised sulfur-charcoal-salt peter cannons made out of hollow tree branches filled with diamonds as projectiles.
  • Trusted Member
  • Wise Sage
  • ******
  • Posts: 21722
  • Gorn Classic, user of Gornix
    • View Profile
We're discussing whether it makes sense to invest in/spend 10s of thousands on an educational program that would tool you up to be a technical specialist in a hot area. For the purpose of landing a good job in that area.

The concensus here seems to be "no."

My wife knows plenty of friends who worked with her at a place that had a mass layoff about five years ago, who were railroaded by the state unemployment bureau into training for either medical technician, or computer technology. No other career option had funding attached to training. Almost everyone she knows who submitted to one of these programs is out looking for work in production or manufacturing, which the training was supposed to get them out of in the first place.
Gornix is protected by the GPL. *

* Gorn Public License. Duplication by inferior sentient species prohibited.

choppedwood

  • Wise Sage
  • *****
  • Posts: 2145
    • View Profile
As part of my exit process I interviewed for a job with a hospital.  One of the quetions was, "have you ever used Meditech?"  "Nope, should I go now?"  Freaking BI.

Development at least has the benefit of a base skillset that while very broad at least doesn't pull this crap on a serious level.  You might get requirements for industry knowledge (especially going solo), but it's pretty consistent to .NET, LAMP, plus the basics (CSS, HTML, jQuery, etc.).  Sure you can run into offbeat stuff but it's actually farily consistent and moderately stable once you've got the base down. 

But retraining all of that, from a PT angle, that's a serious load.  No .gov program, or honestly any short-term program, will get you there, or even close.  You've got to dig in and start learning.  It's not that it can't be done, it's just that there's a lot to not know when you hit the technical portion of an interview.  PT's, no matter how seriously they study, aren't even at the level of a EMT, and you can do 2 week courses to become a EMT.

The Gorn

  • I absolutely DESPISE improvised sulfur-charcoal-salt peter cannons made out of hollow tree branches filled with diamonds as projectiles.
  • Trusted Member
  • Wise Sage
  • ******
  • Posts: 21722
  • Gorn Classic, user of Gornix
    • View Profile
Self Selection and Drive/Motivation - the meal ticket degree is DEAD
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2015, 07:43:40 AM »
Apropos of my previous posting... If someone has to ask if they should invest in expensive training, the answer should unequivocally be "NO".

Taking college for meal ticket reasons just puts you into the pool of candidates like the people my wife knows who took training that didn't result in better job prospects.

Ilconsigliere's friend almost without doubt doesn't have any business asking about taking commercial college courses in web design.

Why: the technology and the resources are so "available" that it behooves the guy to dabble on his own to see if he even likes that kind of work, before pursuing an expensive program.

*IF* big if he likes it after getting a cheap hosting account and playing around, THEN maybe he could look at courses and financing.

There are no meal tickets today. Just sources of revenue. Some easy to exploit, others not so much.
Gornix is protected by the GPL. *

* Gorn Public License. Duplication by inferior sentient species prohibited.

choppedwood

  • Wise Sage
  • *****
  • Posts: 2145
    • View Profile
Re: Self Selection and Drive/Motivation - the meal ticket degree is DEAD
« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2015, 06:17:20 PM »
I think this is a good summary.  If you aren't already there at some level, even beginning levels, then don't.

The Gorn

  • I absolutely DESPISE improvised sulfur-charcoal-salt peter cannons made out of hollow tree branches filled with diamonds as projectiles.
  • Trusted Member
  • Wise Sage
  • ******
  • Posts: 21722
  • Gorn Classic, user of Gornix
    • View Profile
Re: Self Selection and Drive/Motivation - the meal ticket degree is DEAD
« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2015, 09:54:15 PM »
I think this is a good summary.  If you aren't already there at some level, even beginning levels, then don't.

That's very close to what I was getting at.

I meant that if the guy's only motivation is a meal ticket, then he's just a fatted hog for the ITT Tech or DeVry diploma mill to soak for tuition.

He needs to assess his interest in and aptitude for for the work and make certain that he has both. He doesn't have to completely love it but he has to determine if he can see doing this as a job that he would put his heart into.

Otherwise, even with training, he's just another warm body in the job market.
Gornix is protected by the GPL. *

* Gorn Public License. Duplication by inferior sentient species prohibited.

I D Shukhov

  • CCF Winner's Circle - Supporter
  • Wise Sage
  • *
  • Posts: 6201
    • View Profile
Re: Self Selection and Drive/Motivation - the meal ticket degree is DEAD
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2015, 02:49:46 AM »

He needs to assess his interest in and aptitude for for the work and make certain that he has both. He doesn't have to completely love it but he has to determine if he can see doing this as a job that he would put his heart into.

Otherwise, even with training, he's just another warm body in the job market.

He should take some personality and vocational aptitude tests.  I recommend this one:  http://www.roguecc.edu/Counseling/HollandCodes/test.asp

This is a great site.   It will give him a Holland Code and suggest some possible occupations.  The test is based on solid research by John L. Holland -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_L._Holland - who wrote Making Vocational Choices: A Theory of Careers, that was published in 1973.

Also, the Myers-Briggs test is useful.   I'm wondering if the the guy really is an "investigative" type since he's been working as a personal trainer.

Getting a little bit of vocational counseling would help before making a radical career change.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2015, 03:00:33 AM by I D Shukhov »
Be Prepared.

David Randolph

  • Trusted Member
  • Wise Sage
  • ******
  • Posts: 4355
    • View Profile
He described the program to me - ASP, Javascript, Java, CSS, HTML, blah, blah.

I'll be blunt. Don't.

Again. Don't

Why? Because that program is not a program to get rich off of doing web sites. It is a program to get you a low paying job in corporate IT and competing with the Indians.

ASP programming is corporate, not freelance and certainly not high paying. It isn't where the money is in web programming.

benali72

  • CCF Winner's Circle - Supporter
  • Wise Sage
  • *
  • Posts: 2592
    • View Profile
Does the guy like what he's doing today?

If so, I'd advise him to see if there's some way he could leverage his current skills and experience into a position that demands less hours. At 30 and with some experience under his belt, he's an experienced guy in his profession and might be able to wangle a better situation.

Then he'd be happy. Do all trainers work those hours?

choppedwood

  • Wise Sage
  • *****
  • Posts: 2145
    • View Profile

Why? Because that program is not a program to get rich off of doing web sites. It is a program to get you a low paying job in corporate IT and competing with the Indians.

ASP programming is corporate, not freelance and certainly not high paying. It isn't where the money is in web programming.

LOL!  I think every .gov development job I've ever seen is ASP based.  That should tell you everything you need to know from that perspective.

The innovative, creative stuff is almost all open-source.

ilconsiglliere

  • CCF Winner's Circle - Supporter
  • Wise Sage
  • *
  • Posts: 2757
    • View Profile
Does the guy like what he's doing today?

If so, I'd advise him to see if there's some way he could leverage his current skills and experience into a position that demands less hours. At 30 and with some experience under his belt, he's an experienced guy in his profession and might be able to wangle a better situation.

Then he'd be happy. Do all trainers work those hours?

I think he is iffy about his current work. Just like the rest of us.

Training is a tough racket though there are some awesome perks (like if you are a man, the women members basically throw themselves at you. Its like a sexual smorgasbord). Basically it goes like this - if they arent training, they arent earning. You need to be fully loaded up every day to make a living. Its emotionally stressful because you have to deal with people complaining, they really dont want to be there, etc.... You always have to be hustling for new clients.

I think what he wants is a constant paycheck and normal working hours. And he is a bit of a computer geek with the gadgets. I already tried to tell him about the H1B thing and he didnt really understand. Most people dont understand when I tell them the entire IT dept in most companies is almost all foreign. I also mentioned that IT people can work a lot of hours and not be paid for them. And there is of course the no job stability. 

benali72

  • CCF Winner's Circle - Supporter
  • Wise Sage
  • *
  • Posts: 2592
    • View Profile
To the degree that he's looking for less hours and a more stable work environment, I don't think I'd recommend IT. Although it's a big field and there's lots of variance, as you know most IT people work significant overtime. So if he's looking for a "harbor from the storm," for most people, IT is not it. Just my opinion. 

Sounds like you did an excellent job of counseling him, ilconsiglliere. I hope he listens to you.