Varied Points of View on Agism in IT

[The Gorn]

Some interesting comments and comebacks posted to this article:

http://hereandnow.wbur.org/2011/10/11/high-tech-workers

There is much more diversity of opinion expressed in this article than you find with the H1B haters on the "Programmers Guild" mailing lists. In particular, all you get on the Guild type mailing lists is anger and stories of personal failure. There are some contrary opinions posted to this thread that you'd never see on the activist sites.

The very interesting thing is that an alleged few older guys in this discussion  are claiming that they are currently employed in new kewl shit like Android, IOS and RoR development.

I bolded a few remarks that seemed quotable or noteworthy. Note the one older guy saying that his employer looks for evidence of open source contributions in making hire choices.

In any event, it appears that there is only partial concensus on the issue of agism. Apparently some in the affected age groups say that it is not a factor.

Note this quote: "As far as I'm concerned, it's never been easier to get an IT job, regardless of age."

These remarks don't read like shills and we can't say they don't count because some "young asshole" posted them. They read authentically.

What do you guys think?

I am more confused than ever.

I have been writing software (in multiple assembler languages, C, C#, C++, Java, Perl, SQL, and half a dozen other languages, all now obsolete) for embedded systems (telecom, datacom) and various user interfaces for 35 years.  I am still pretty young (I started as a developer when I was 16), but I have discovered that the private sector is not interested in people over 40.  The excuses that I hear are astonishing: "You don't already know PHP."  I've written server-side CGI scripts in Perl and ksh; I'm writing Java classes that run on the server side as part of a struts-based GUI.

I have led successful software development teams from a blank sheet of paper to completion; I have hired an entire technical publications department and led them to success in deliverables for our DSL access multiplexer.  I have six books published, assisted lawyers in ground breaking legal challenges, and the U.S. Supreme Court has cited my work twice (as well as numerous decisions of lower courts).  I have worked in technical marketing roles as well, and been highly effective at it.  I have an MA in History, and not surprisingly, I am extremely effective at both oral and written communications.  At one company, a document that I produced as an introduction for our new developers was called by many of those who read it the finest technical document in the data communications industry.

I guess the notion that it might take me a couple of weeks to be proficient in PHP and several months to become expert--well, that's just too long!  It's not like my experience is worth anything.  I now work for a state government, making less than I did, adjusted for inflation, than I did in 1980.  But employers can't seem to find engineers here!  Color me skeptical.

I'm an older worker, I have more work and more offers for work than I know what to do with. As an employee, my company is definitely having a hard time finding IT works of any age. We'll gladly take someone with similar skills and a desire to learn what we do. Clayton, I would say if you're looking for a web development job, your web skills are way out of date. I haven't done Perl CGI scripts for 10 years. We did a lot of Perl development at one time (mod_perl, no CGI), now we're primarily using Ruby on Rails, though we also use PHP and Python. I'm over 50, my skill set today is much different that it was 10 years ago. A lot of the older stuff I don't even put on my resume. Right now my primary skills are Ruby, Ruby on Rails (enterprise development), Python (Django, buy mainly sys admin scripting), PHP (CakePHP, WordPress), and Objective-C/iOS development. The only Java I do now is Android. I have no lack of work with these skills and I get paid well. I'm over 50. No company I've ever worked for has ever cared about "age," or even "specific" skills. If we find someone who is a PHP developer and they want to learn RoR, then we'll hire them. We don't train former COBOL, Pascal, C++, or other people with other unrelated skills without them demonstrating effort on their own part. If we don't projects on Github or other contributions to open source projects, or some other demonstration of a person keeping up to date, we're not interested. As far as I'm concerned, it's never been easier to get an IT job, regardless of age. I'm not saying this to be mean, but if you can't find a job, then update your skills.

One reason for blatant, in-your-face agism in IT is cultural. Very young, unseasoned people are made into managers in technology today, and a cardinal workplace principle is that you can't embarrass or show up your manager.

Another cultural leaning-reason is simply a widespread belief that youth is "better" where technology is concerned.

A 45 or 54 year old software developer learning Android or Ruby on Rails development in order to remain competitive is probably engaging in a futile exercise. The technical mastery point is used as a reason for no hire but it's simply the current excuse to justify agism.

Lastly, our culture has developed an immense contempt for age, wisdom and experience. All three are widely cast as synonyms for plodding, stupid, rigid, and unimaginative.

Older workers in technology today are in employment terms exactly where blacks or women were in the 1950s or earlier, while companies tout their progressive "non discrimination" and "affirmative action" policies. One thing that happens to everyone - aging - is a key reason for no-hire, and it's perceived as an irrelevant technicality not to be spoken of or addressed.

As a 52-year old developer who switched to Ruby on Rails and iOS development (and learning Android), I have to completely disagree. My move has been anything but futile. It's revitalized my career, made me in demand, and I make more money than ever. Right now I would hire a developer who is experienced in modern web development but not RoR in a heartbeat (and give them all the help they needed to get up to speed with RoR and our business), age regardless. However, what I can't do is train a COBOL programmer who has taken no interest in upgrading his or her skills. I won't say age discrimination doesn't happen, but I think agism is a myth in IT.

I have twenty years of IT and software development experience and am seeing the age problem.  Another is I was never able to find the time to finish college (I always ended up working in salary jobs or jobs that just required that I work lots of hours whether I was paid for the time or not leaving no time for school).  I'd like to  go back to school and get a CS or EE or some other engineering degree, but I would be at least 50 when I finished school and I am highly skeptical I would be able to find a job in field at that age (and the bad economy has wiped out most of my life savings and retirement so I would have to assume lots of student loan debt along with having an underwater mortgage).  I've seen lots of people like me end up in retailing or service jobs even with an engineering degree because they are now considered too old.

I guess I'll focus on developing smart phone apps and other business ideas instead of trying a return to college or getting a job...
1 person liked this.

   

I'm over 50 and never finished my CS degree. For me, it would be a waste of money. I've never had a job that required a degree or certification, and when we hire, that's the last thing we care about. I'm talking about development (web, mobile) specifically, not engineering. Teach yourself, take classes (even free ones - UC Berekely, Stanford, etc have lots of CS course online for free. Check out iTunes U). Join an open source project and/or release your own open source projects on Github. Volunteer for a non-profit (that's how I was able to do my first iPhone app). Keep learning, keep doing. We've been looking for a programer or two for months and just impossible to find and most of my recruiter friends tell me the same thing. And as someone who as interviewed and reviewed resumes, I can say the pickings are pretty dismal. The field is wide open...take advantage of it.

My how quickly we forget. The headline in the February 25, 1992 Detroit Free Press read "GM cuts, Michigan Bleeds." The story about foreign competition for U.S. jobs is over 20 years old. The nearly universal public attitude about this issue has been that it isn't a problem unless the job being outsourced is yours. It started with blue colar union jobs in the auto industry. Then other non-union production workers lost their jobs when factories moved to other countries. Then some white colar jobs like engineering were moved out of the U.S. In each case the first company to move jobs out of the U.S. used the excuse that they needed a competitive edge. Then, in order to stay competitive with their rivals, other companies in the same industry felt compelled to seek locations where the wages they paid were a fraction of the wages paid here in the U.S. The tech industry is now trying to justify bringing in cheap labor from foreign countries by saying that there aren't enough workers here in the U.S. who have the knowledge to do the work they have available. That may be partly true, but in all honesty the tech industry would like to pay lower wages in order to increase profits. That is also the case in the agriculture industry, the construction industry, the hotel/motel industry, professional sports, etc. The fact is that people who come to this country, whether legally or illegally, will work for less than the U.S. workers currently doing those jobs. I'm sorry that the employees in the tech industry are losing their jobs, but the problem they are facing is hardly new.

I applaud your 67-year old guest with a 35-year background in IT for his motivation to learn the modern IT skills needed, but he seems to lack an understanding from the employers' perspective.  He needs to apply his sharp mind by learning the modern programming languages and technologies used today, and not expect an employer to hire him based solely on his background and ability to learn "on the job".  Employers want employees who are trained NOW and ready to be productive DAY ONE, not that will need further training to bring them up to speed (I speak as an employer who is hiring now).  So while I applaud and respect his vigor, especially at that age, he needs to go back to school taking relevant courses and/or demonstrate his ability to APPLY that knowledge (for example, help a non-profit with IT) BEFORE applying for today's IT openings, especially given he has not been working in the IT field for 7 years.

You'll notice the term "demonstrated ability to..." is often used in today's job ads, which means you know how to do this now and you can prove it, not that you conceptually could learn it and prove yourself down the road.

As I read through the other comments posted here, I'm disheartened to see so much "victim mentality" as I call it... the same that we see with the Occupy Wall Street movement.  Workers from other countries understand we have the best opportunities here in America and that's why they're working so hard to educate themselves to get jobs here... they don't have an entitlement mentality, which is why you don't see them marching with the rest of the protesters.  I agree this is class warfare, but it's not the rich vs. the poor, it's the eager vs. the entitled. 

Finally, if you can't find a job, start a business!  Prove your value to the market.  No one will validate and reward your value better than the market itself. 

Here's what I have observed: America loves the benefits of capitalism on the way up, but rushes to the false-protection of socialism on the way down.  We can't have it both ways.

   

If you're a victim, it is not inappropriate to have a victim mentality.

Unfortunately, STEM workers are too likely to do the opposite, to think it's them, when really they are being screwed over by others.  It has taken us ten years and more to understand the big picture, which is the US deindustrializing itself to make a short-term profit, even if means long-term destruction.  Now, that is something STEM workers CAN understand, it is good systems analysis and engineering.  And it is just what politicians are bad at, seriously bad at.

I am a sixty year old technical worker and have been on short contracts and unemployment for the last five years.  I agree that companies are looking to hire cheaper workers.  I have often worked with visa holders as colleagues. These workers are trained in their home countries, often trained very well, and trained at much lower expense. Many are willing to go anywhere in the country at their own expense and do anything in any environment for less pay than any less "motivated" american worker would do.  They are looking to set themselves up for life in their home countries with two or three years work here.  Of course companies will hire these workers because they are competent, they  are cheap, and they are tractable.
   The problem is that this is destroying my professional life.  I have a son here who lives with his mother and I will not relocate because I need to be close to him.  I am reluctant to lower my rates for many reasons but certainly would if offered a stable, comfortable environment. 
    Often I don't have the specific technical skills a manager wants and in this economy  there are lots of great people on the market who have specific skills. It is hugely cost effective to hire specific technical expertise rather than pay for training. 
     Personally, I can and will continue training but if it is exclusively at my own expense  it is very expensive and almost not worth while. An Indian colleague invited me to come stay with him and take training in India, in English, at one quarter the cost here. With few exceptions, high hourly rates aren't worth the cost of maintaining high level technical certifications.  If I were a technical manager I would try to use as few "consultant" hours as I could and would fight for training funds for myself and my staff but I expect I would lose that fight more often that I would win it. 
   I have other assets.  I've seen a lot of mistakes made and know how to avoid them.  I read a lot and I really enjoy the technology.  I'm good to have in an office to keep it calm in the face of emergencies and other stressful moments.  I will support the authority of the technical manager and know to work hard to make him look good to his management.  I can communicate and I know how important documentation is and reporting are. I know what ROI is and how to address those requirements.   
   Don't expect the market to resolve my problems or others like me.  It is a company's job to externalize cost everywhere possible.  It is the government's job to keep it's citizens from being exploited and human capital from being depleted.  I'll do my part but I need the government to do it's part.  Help me train.  Regulate markets so that the value I and my fellows bring to an organization are recognized as much as the hyper fashionable quarterly earnings statement.

[TRexx]

Every time I hear someone say we have to "retool" or "update or skills" I want to scream.  How are we supposed to do that?  We can take all the classes in the world but without any real experience, no one will touch you.  I've seen a few companies that will retrain older workers on their new technology, but most don't want to wind up with a bunch of 40+ year old trainees - not when they can hire someone half as old with the same experience.   

 

[Carrie Cobol]

I agree with Trexx.  And that last commenter had very good points about the cost of training here compared to Indian training.  I think the divisive attitudes demonstrated by our own fellows every time we discuss this topic just demonstrates how competitive the field is.  Like overcrowded rats, we're fighting tooth and nail to get above the other guy.

It was also interesting how many of the commenters mentioned being unwilling to hire former Cobol programmers unless they trained themselves in modern tools.  This really describes me, although I admit that I bailed out on the process.  I started learning javascript and jquery, php and etc, but I never followed through to apply to companies hiring for those skills.  Why?  For me it was a double-edged sword:  older and female.  I just know I culturally wouldn't fit into any web development shop since they're primarily young, male, and Indian.

My current FTE is primarily young, male and Indian.  But at least as a BA, I get to attend meetings and work with older, female and caucasian on a frequent basis because those demographics still dominate the PM/general business/managerial ranks.

[I D Shukhov]

People spend too much time thinking about the wrong problem.  Instead of asking what skills do I need to have to work for somebody, or "will *they* have me at my age?", a better question to ask (at any age) is:   "How can I create a software business?" 

Not sure why that question takes a back seat.  I guess it's because the System seems to be a given and that companies have all the leverage, and there's some truth to that. 

The startup culture may a backlash against wage and contract slavery (complete with the slave agents).

[David Randolph]

It was also interesting how many of the commenters mentioned being unwilling to hire former Cobol programmers unless they trained themselves in modern tools.  This really describes me, although I admit that I bailed out on the process. 

May I suggest that the reason for this bias is the thinking that Cobol programmers are:
a. trained in batch processing
b. trained for highly structured, high reliability environments which take significant time to release

The expectations of how to run a project are very different between bank processing and those "agile" environments. It is more a matter of these expectations than any technical skills.



Back to the question
I suspect that we are seeing some uptick in demand for IT professionals. Recently, the local paper had the most want ads for IT people that I have seen in several years. When there are more people than positions, discrimination happens. When positions are begging for people, discrimination disappears.

I also support the position that if you can't find a job you like, go out and start a company and make a job that you can like.

[The Gorn]

It was also interesting how many of the commenters mentioned being unwilling to hire former Cobol programmers unless they trained themselves in modern tools.  This really describes me, although I admit that I bailed out on the process. 

May I suggest that the reason for this bias is the thinking that Cobol programmers are:
a. trained in batch processing
b. trained for highly structured, high reliability environments which take significant time to release

The expectations of how to run a project are very different between bank processing and those "agile" environments. It is more a matter of these expectations than any technical skills.

David, what you are stating is one of the preposterous smokescreens that offshoring and agist champions claim. (Sorry again.)

The reality is that virtually any technology or skill mismatch is used as a reason of the highest order to not consider someone. It can be a very minor mismatch, or not having the right flavor of something, that sends someone to the do not hire column.

One of the comments in that thread stated that a poster was beyond consideration because he only knew Perl:

Clayton, I would say if you're looking for a web development job, your web skills are way out of date. I haven't done Perl CGI scripts for 10 years. We did a lot of Perl development at one time (mod_perl, no CGI), now we're primarily using Ruby on Rails, though we also use PHP and Python.

CGI and Perl are far, far more difficult than modern tools and they also bespeak the right thinking about client/server development. If you get CGI in depth you get just about any web development style. A person who can cope with these older tools can definitely slide right into PHP, Python or RoR development.

The guy I'm quoting is exactly one of the types that Carrie Cobol mentioned, one of "our fellows" who is using his own limited experience to justify discrimination and to show that it's correct.

Having said that - the person who has old CGI skills who is interested in RoR should get off his ass and pick it up. However, I doubt that the new skill would receive much traction in a job search. The guy being quoted above is a SW engineer who thinks he's OK. The resume of the job seeker still has to go through HR and will probably be shot down for lack of paid experience in a targeted skill.

So, no, I don't accept the reasoning that because a person uses  COBOL they must only know batch and regimented process and are therefor a dinosaur and that this is a possible reason for no hire or consideration. 

HR departments and even today's technical leads and managers likely know "f*ck all" (as the British say) about batch. They probably never ran into it.

The reality is that hiring parties have their own agenda and they see an entire complex of reasons not to hire someone based simply upon age, temperament profile, and national origin.

[Origisaurus]

It's not about "skillz" and it's not about age.  It's about money, i. e., cheap labor.

Older employees cost more, because health insurance for them costs more, and they have higher salary expectations.  And they are not as easy to push around.  H1Bs are even cheaper, because they aren't eligible to participate in retirement plans.

"Skillz" are all too often presumed from certs and the like.  Few, if any, "programming" courses actually teach programming.  They teach the syntax and primitives of a particular language, and few "freshers" can actually program.  Any actual programming skill the may pick up in those course is completely accidental.

When I used to show crooters my alphabet-soup list of nearly 100 "skillz", their eyes would just glaze over.  Similarly, hiring managers fear that a truly proficient subordinate will take their job.

Just in case you missed it, FOLLOW THE MONEY!

[The Gorn]

It's not about "skillz" and it's not about age.  It's about money, i. e., cheap labor.
...
Just in case you missed it, FOLLOW THE MONEY!

Well, yeah. But the excuses are what make up the discussion on "agism or not?" so the excuses make up the broad rationale that is publicly used to discriminate against specific groups. The excuse is skills... and the target - the preferred skill - is ever changing, contextually dependent, and is just a smoke screen for the truth, which is money.

The raw truth is that when someone doesn't want to hire particular candidates, they will make up a reason to suit the circumstance.

[ilconsiglliere]

I have been through the retooling thing several times already. Agism is just an excuse like any other that business uses to get what it wants. What it ultimately wants is dirt cheap labor with little to no grief from the general public. If you want to retool yourself on your own dime I think the key is to find a niche and exploit the hell out of it. That means finding something everyone else is NOT doing and do that.

For example:

When the first waves of outsourcing appeared in the mid to late 90s the excuse was that outsourcing lets the people who work on legacy stuff be freed up to work on the new exciting stuff and be retrained in newer technology. I saw some of this happen and the people were indeed retrained.

This message was later modified to say that all the creative work will be done in the US and all the mundane boring stuff will be done over seas. This was before the widespread abuse of H1B.

Later the message switched from that its about optimization and following the sun. We can be more agile and when one group shuts down for the day the group in India can continue keep working. Never mind the logistics and timing is a nightmare.

When the H1B started to get in full swing the excuse was there was a shortage of IT people in the US so we need to bring in foreigners with all the skills. This excuse is still playing now. Ultimately this was about driving down wages in the US by glutting the job market with people.

Now we are hearing excuses that the H1Bs are better trained, are more innovative and that the US needs these people to be competitive. In other words Americans are stupid and cant innovate so we need more foreigners.

The reality is that IT is IT. If you are experienced in a bunch of things how long do you think it will take you to pick something up? Not long. There is a bigger problem today though, nobody wants to train anybody. So you have to do it on your own dime. So even if you do that it does not mean people will give you a job. I have been looking for the past few months and I can tell you for a fact that the employers are being incredibly picky now - must have a minimum of 10 years of pharma, 10 years of telecom, must have abcdefghijkmnopqrstuvw.... blah skills. Its incredible now. On top of this they get like 200 candidates for every single job.

I am starting to come to the conclusion its time for me to start my own business. Because otherwise I am going to be forever beholden to these people. Not sure its going to be a technology oriented business or something else. I just know the current system is just not working.

[Origisaurus]

It's not about "skillz" and it's not about age.  It's about money, i. e., cheap labor.
...
Just in case you missed it, FOLLOW THE MONEY!

Well, yeah. But the excuses are what make up the discussion on "agism or not?" so the excuses make up the broad rationale that is publicly used to discriminate against specific groups. The excuse is skills... and the target - the preferred skill - is ever changing, contextually dependent, and is just a smoke screen for the truth, which is money.

The raw truth is that when someone doesn't want to hire particular candidates, they will make up a reason to suit the circumstance.

And arguing with the excuses is what keeps you from tearing down the actual reasons, and the thieving lowlifes get away with it.

[DG9]

Perhaps we should start building custom yachts for the ultra rich.

[Walter Mitty]

I have been through the retooling thing several times already. Agism is just an excuse like any other This message was later modified to say that all the creative work will be done in the US and all the mundane boring stuff will be done over seas. This was before the widespread abuse of H1B.

I'm not sure when the widespread abuse of H1B began.  My gut tells me "almost immediately".  Anyways, I want to go back to the 1990s, when Clinton was in the White House, when the economy was on the upsurge, when the Japanese onslaught had been turned back, when we could enjoy the peace dividend, and when anybody who wanted to could find a job (well, that was the story). 

I was unaware of the H1B visa until I learned about it in RealRates or one of its successors.  When I looked into it, I found that H1B proponents were simultaneously setting forth two arguments to two different sectors of the IT world.

The argument given to the grunts, people doing very low level IT jobs for one reason or another was this:  we only grant H1B visas to people with advanced degrees or degrees in specialized areas.  That's where the shortages are.  If you want one of these jobs, go back to school and get your credentials.  Then you can wirte your own ticket. 

Then one time I was at a conference where Clinton's technology adviser was talking to a bunch of computer consultants.  I raised the issue of H1B's taking jobs away from independents.  He said we have nothing to worry about.  All the H1B jobs were going to people who worked at lower levels that us. 

As far as I'm concerned, H1B was built for abuse.  And that's nothing against foreigners.

[David Randolph]

And arguing with the excuses is what keeps you from tearing down the actual reasons, and the thieving lowlifes get away with it.

This is a very important point. We are dealing with emotional issues, not rational ones. What they tell you as the reason is not true. Thus, trying to argue with the excuses is trying to use reason against emotion. Of course, we do not win the argument.

Part of the problem is the emotional aspect of wanting the job. That means that we stand in the wrong position to be able to win an argument.

I am starting to come to the conclusion its time for me to start my own business. Because otherwise I am going to be forever beholden to these people. Not sure its going to be a technology oriented business or something else. I just know the current system is just not working.

It changes the emotional landscape. We get to say no to the low life. Go for it.

[TRexx]

I'm not sure when the widespread abuse of H1B began.  My gut tells me "almost immediately". 

I don't recall if the visas were "H-1B" or some other number, but the body shop I worked for circa 1980 used lots of them.   Those were the halcyon days before AT&T was broken up and IBM had just rolled out the 4300 series which made mainframes available to smaller companies. We couldn't  hire people fast enough. We eventually hired 2 full time recruiters -- one in the UK and one in South Africa.  Most of the folks we brought over were very good. Some went home after a year, but some stayed and we helped them get their Green Card.

I do remember our management complaining about how much extra it cost us to get these people. We had an attorney on retainer just to handle the paperwork. For each one we had to demonstrate that they were qualified (degree in Math, Comp Sci or some other science), we were not taking a job away from an American and we were paying the prevailing wage.  To prove that we had to identify 2 or 3 current employees with similar qualifications and experience.

I'm not sure when it became the racket it is now. 

[Richardk]

Perhaps we should start building custom yachts for the ultra rich.

Ha! We do that in town and they've been idle (laid off) for months. Same story with lots of talk but no contracts.

That aside, I get your point.

In the beginning, the H1B visa issue wasn't a big concern since there was plenty of work. Later I was caught off guard with just how bad the situation would get. I certainly made major career mistakes, not seeing where we'd be today.

You can run your own shop (build those custom yachts) but I'm having a difficult time finding buyers willing to spend money. Actually it's both, finding customers and willingness to spend.

Since everyone is an IT guy today, the question is "why you?". I'm in a small market, so being a generalist is essential since you'll starve if you specialize too much. On the flip side as a generalist, you're not "the expert". So you have to find your niche.

The money. People / companies don't want to spend unless the pain is great enough. Money is out there but you need to seek out the ones that are willing to spend it and hopefully the high school kids / wannabes / H1B's are not your competition.

Finally this market is volatile. You can follow the herd, line up with a product / service or build your own and hope 'they will come'. Without something to anchor to, you can get quite lost in this market. Even plain old contracting is a loser today; Not that it was ever great but work was plentiful.