Author Topic: Massive Survey of India CS Grad Programming Skills  (Read 347 times)

Code Refugee

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Massive Survey of India CS Grad Programming Skills
« on: April 21, 2017, 05:56:01 AM »
http://www.gadgetsnow.com/jobs/95-engineers-in-india-unfit-for-software-development-jobs-claims-report/articleshow/58278224.cms

Presented with simple code challenges, an evaluation of Indian CS graduates seeking employment found:

* Less than 40% of India CS graduates can write any code whatsoever that compiles at all, much less runs or is correct.
* 4.77% of India CS graduates were able to write simple code that was actually correct.
* 1.4% of India CS graduates were able to write simple code that was both correct and reasonably efficient.

I'm pretty stoked about these specific numbers because when that old 1% rock star meme comes up for years I have been using these exact numbers that I pulled out of my ass to say that the top 1% are the guys that are sort of OK, and only 5% are competent to write working code at all, the bottom 95% are literally useless. In my case though I don't tie it to ethnicity. American university grads that are in the job market are just as stupid and incompetent. Most of them are asian though, but whether white or asian doesn't matter, 19 out of 20 job candidates can't do anything at all. I think it's been said that it's sort of self selecting recycled failure as the losers are more likely to be out of work. Yeah probably so but still I don't think the raw numbers are good either.

We work at places that are in business so we have survivor bias. We look around and we work with people who are at least minimally competent. They may be terrible but they can eventually get something to work. Out there in the general populace of developers though most people have literally negative productivity in that they can not produce anything that works, but they take up other people's time.

One thing I am sure of. Those of us that survived because we're actually competent are massively underpaid, no matter how much we are paid. Guys that can't do anything are all over the place pulling in 6 figures. If you can actually do anything aren't you worth more? I say yes. Problem is companies still are incapable of recognizing or evaluating actual skills and competence.

ilconsiglliere

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Re: Massive Survey of India CS Grad Programming Skills
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2017, 06:14:34 AM »
I have known this for years so its no surprise. The massive numbers of these people in the country has completely suppressed wages for what we do. We all should be making a lot more.

Just remember you, I and the rest of us Americans & Europeans are INFERIOR. We cannot do IT without the magical Indian guru. They are THE BEST and BRIGHTEST. And oh yeah you are racist. Pardon me while I puke.

You should send it to Trump. Thats why I am stoked about this executive order. If it eliminates the low wage component of it along with the visa holder being tied to the company, the Elbonian body shops will go out of business.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 06:30:02 AM by ilconsiglliere »

Code Refugee

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Re: Massive Survey of India CS Grad Programming Skills
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2017, 06:46:13 AM »
We don't need to tie it to race though.

Here's what we need to do. Have independent testing of all H1B and other visa'd tech immigrants to make sure they are qualified for their jobs. If let's say, more than 50% of potential immigrants FAIL the test, then put that entire nation on a new "known educational fraud" list and permaban everyone from that country. Same as we know there are certain terrorist countries out there and have them on a list of people that can't come here. Let's extend this concept to other kinds of known hotbeds of troublemakers.

See, my plan doesn't mention race at all. It's based on stopping fraud, without reference to race at all. Who could possibly argue with that? And look at how ridiculous my numbers are. If only 5% of them were incompetent, that would justify putting the country on the fraud list. A 50% cut off is so extreme only a hard core extremist would be able to object to it. But when they do offer to raise the cut off to 75%. Surely if 75% of all people in a group are fraudulent, it is reasonable to ban the whole group.

No need to be called a racist when it's not necessary. Just stop fraud and terrorism. Now if the impartial evaluation of which countries are terrorist and committing educational fraud turns out it's all people of this or that race, well that's reality that's racist, not us.

In this case they tested 36,000 grads of 500 different colleges and got these results. That proves their problems are not with any specific school but are throughout their entire country. Obviously their educational system is totally fraudulent and they have no legitimate schools at all. These credentials are no different than fake mail order degrees you buy for $10 from "novelty" sites. It's completely fake to say that these people are skilled or qualified.

http://www.diplomacenter.net/America/20170112/738.html
http://www.realisticdiplomas.com/custom.aspx?id=85
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 07:10:14 AM by Code Refugee »

David Randolph

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Re: Massive Survey of India CS Grad Programming Skills
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2017, 07:07:25 AM »
Problem is companies still are incapable of recognizing or evaluating actual skills and competence.

This is the key. That is why competent people generally work for places that sell software products instead of service. Companies are generally capable of recognizing that a product (minimally) works. (Individual managers are not capable of that recognition.)

benali72

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Re: Massive Survey of India CS Grad Programming Skills
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2017, 03:37:23 PM »
Yeah, this is why it's such a joke that you always hear "We need to hire H1Bs because we can't find any qualified Americans." Baloney.

Anyone who has actually worked with H1B techies knows that the majority has subpar skills, that the mix includes a smaller number of well-trained people, and sprinkled in there are a few rock stars.

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Re: Massive Survey of India CS Grad Programming Skills
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2017, 04:48:44 PM »
I had a client back in 2005 that was a total piece of shit. It was a highly "Christian" couple who were funding a software project that was an add-on to a vendor's insurance management app. The wife treated me like garbage. These morons hired a really stupid and lazy Indian guy to work on the same area of the project I was on, who didn't dig into anything on the project. And the woman was blaming me for the guy not learning. I eventually quit over it - I was just tired of doing their work but being constantly insulted and disrespected.

But the woman's reaction to my comments was kind of interesting. I'd point out that the Indian guy didn't take any initiative to learn the code. The woman attacked me for saying this telling me that as a lowly contractor it was not my place to comment on their business decision and that I wasn't doing a good job of onboarding the guy. I asked her how I learned the code considering that they didn't know jack shit about the source code and I picked it up and ran with it. Crickets.

Bear in mind that this was literally a husband-and-wife company with development funded by (probably) a home equity loan. In that kind of situation there is no place to hide lack of performance. The owner herself, handling the money for the project and paying the contractor's invoices, could simply not be convinced that this cheap Indian guy was a substandard retard who was not doing anything at all of any value. SHE personally stood to lose, yet she couldn't accept realistic information. Her ego and hostility trumped and short circuited any discussion.

If that's a two person company, imagine how much tougher it is to note the elephant in the room when there's a few dozen people involved.

So I think the real answer is massive denial. Everyone knows that Indians are stupid and incapable meal-ticket developers but executives will say that this is a detail issue better handled by echelons beneath them.
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unix

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Re: Massive Survey of India CS Grad Programming Skills
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2017, 04:55:04 PM »
ha, it's eye-opening.
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