I Love The Smell of Borks In The Morning - Obnoxious, Fast Talking Recruiters

[ilconsiglliere]

On Monday I released my resume out to the world. In about 3 days I got about 200 emails from agencies of all kinds. Most of the jobs were dead ends - not my skill set, industry experience, etc....

I had one call me yesterday about a certain large wireless company that we all love. That being said the rep which was a white woman was the most obnoxious of any encountered in a long time.

Incredibly pushy, fast talking and just plain bad. She was pushing a senior PM job on me at 45/hour. They went through this ordeal where they went over every single skill and on and on. I told them the rate was too low for what they wanted. On top of this they wanted me to drive 1 hour so they could do a walk around to see if I was what I appeared. I refused to do the walk around and finally said ok to the walk around and they submitted my resume after I provided 3 references.

I was supposed to interview at 4:30 on the phone. The manager doesnt call till 5 and said can we reschedule. I said sure, when. He says how about 8pm tonight. I said NO. Than he says how about tomorrow, I said sure. Strike 1.

Interview was supposed to be at 10:30, he doesnt show up till 10:50 and only talks to me for 15 minutes. Strike 2.

Went over my skills and than asks. The manager was this Indian guy. That being said he asked if I had any questions and I told him point blank that 45/hour is too low. I said look, if you are interested in me coming here I need more $. He asked what I wanted and I said 55-60 (I was making 56 at M* B*ll). He said he would talk to the consulting company. I said fine.

So I called the consulting company to debrief and she said how did it go. I said fine. Than she wanted to do this technical debriefing. What questions did he ask, what kinds of technical things did he want to know. She was just so pushy and obnoxious I said to her I dont
want to do a debriefing so you could fill in a profile about the guy on your computer. She was taken aback.

Than I said lets get one thing clear right now, 45/hour is too low and I know the guy is going to offer me the job but I will NOT go there for 45 per hour. I told her I want to know a couple of things:

1. The billing rate.
2. Who owns the consulting company as your company has no information on who the principals are - strike 3.

Than she started into this crap about how I agreed yesterday and that I cant be changing it. I said yes I can change it just like everything else in America. I said I wanted to know the billing rate on the job and who the principals are.

She was like I cant tell you that, we have a contract with the telco. I said look this is ridiculous, I am the one doing the work, the one doing the interviewing and you are telling me that you cant tell me the billing rate nor who owns the consulting company? She goes this is confidential information.

I said you are NOT going to make 40-50% margins on me for doing NOTHING. Get it? 

She was like I am not sure we are going to be able to work together. Than I said to her frankly I dont give a crap about the consulting company. I am a consultant, do you know what that means? I get no bennies, no NOTHING. I owe you NOTHING, get it.

Than finally she said that I was making her uncomfortable and she is not sure whether we can work together. I said whatever, get your boss on the phone and dont call me 99 times. She has a habit of calling like 99 times and I told her point blank dont call me, email only.

Than after lunch her boss calls and starts with me. How did it go. I said it went well though we did not speak very long.

She goes I can tell you are very smart but why did you go discuss the rate with the manager. I said look, lets get something clear right now, 45/hour is too low. I WILL NOT go to the telco for that.

I said have you seen what they want?

This is not some little clerk job, the guy is talking about 20-25 meetings a week. This is going to be a stressful job and you are telling me that it only pays 45. I said its not going to
happen. Than she started into this crap about how I "committed" to the 45/hour yesterday and I said yeah well things change.

Than she starts this arm twisting routine and I finally got irritated and said I DONT want to discuss this and I will NOT CHANGE MY MIND.  Than she is like 45 is the best we can do. Than I started with her again, whats the billing rate. She goes its confidential and we are not making much on this.

I said oh, really, than whats the percent you are making, I said you only need 12% to break even on a contractor. Whats your cut? She said thats confidential.

Than she said so you are telling me that you want me to withdraw your candidacy, I said DO WHAT YOU GO TO DO. There are a lot of other consulting companies that are vendors with the telco that will be more than happy to pay me more. She didnt like that and I hung up on her.

I am SICK of these people. IT consulting has turned into a freaking bazaar pimping bodies out like they were selling slaves in the 19th century. It was never a nice business but its even worse now. I cannot believe these people, its just like everything else in America. They want to skim off the top of everyone else and do nothing to get it. Freaking parasites.

As long as you do what they want and are some docile little dog its all wet kisses and sunshine. Once you disrupt their routine and they realize you have a brain in your head they dont like it.

BTW, here is the job rec:

These candidates will be working on multiple technical projects for the handset and messaging teams. They do not need to be technical, but need to have an understanding of technology. They may be working on both application and infrastructure based projects. They will be creating presentations with power point, writing project plans, as well as doing massive amounts of documentation.

*Create Status Reports , PowerPoint Presentations

*Project Conference call logistics and Execution

* Liaison with Key Project sponsors, stakeholders and Team members

*Follow-up communications for task tracking

*Updating of and collaboration using Project specific SharePoint Portals

*Collect, compile and create weekly status reports, includes sending reminders, following up with individual Team members for status, clarification, etc.

*Work with individuals to compile all weekly data and to optimize, improve and streamline reporting process

*Compile weekly Metrics for Weekly Operations Review; which includes working with the Software Deployment, and other teams to get their metrics, clarify issues and update a SharePoint based Excel File

*Manage production support conference calls

*Understand business requirements for the projects and work with development , production support team for successful implementation

Project Manager II - Manage all facets of technical projects to ensure deliverables are met within schedule, budget, and quality goals.

Project Plan development within a production support and operations group. Must have experience with Project communication:

. Create Status Reports , PowerPoint Presentations . Project Conference call logistics and Execution . Liaison with Key Project sponsors, stakeholders and Team members . Follow-up communications for task tracking . Updating of and collaboration using Project specific SharePoint Portals . Collect, compile and create weekly status reports, includes sending reminders, following up with individual Team members for status, clarification, etc.
. Work with individuals to compile all weekly data and to optimize, improve and streamline reporting process . Compile weekly Metrics for Weekly Operations Review; which includes working with the Software Deployment, and other teams to get their metrics, clarify issues and update a SharePoint based Excel File . Manage production support conference calls . Understand business requirements for the projects and work with development , production support team for successful implementation

[pxsant]

They are obviously a scumbag  but they are right about one thing.  You never discuss rates with the end client.  The rate is between you and the agency and should not be discussed with the client or anyone else, like another contractor, at the client.

But stick to you guns.  Demand $60/hour or walk away.   $45 for a PM??  Are they kidding?  I guarantee they are billing the client $85 minimum per hour.  They are trying to rip off too much of the billing rate. 

But then, the billing rate does not matter.  Demand what you want as a rate and leave it to the agency how to pay what you want.

[John Masterson]

They are obviously a scumbag  but they are right about one thing.  You never discuss rates with the end client.  The rate is between you and the agency and should not be discussed with the client or anyone else, like another contractor, at the client.

But stick to you guns.  Demand $60/hour or walk away.   $45 for a PM??  Are they kidding?  I guarantee they are billing the client $85 minimum per hour.  They are trying to rip off too much of the billing rate. 

But then, the billing rate does not matter.  Demand what you want as a rate and leave it to the agency how to pay what you want.

Unless of course they bill him at 195/hr and the client expects miracles, right? Not sure how often that happens, though...

[Walter Mitty]

They are obviously a scumbag  but they are right about one thing.  You never discuss rates with the end client.  The rate is between you and the agency and should not be discussed with the client or anyone else, like another contractor, at the client.

But stick to you guns.  Demand $60/hour or walk away.   $45 for a PM??  Are they kidding?  I guarantee they are billing the client $85 minimum per hour.  They are trying to rip off too much of the billing rate. 

But then, the billing rate does not matter.  Demand what you want as a rate and leave it to the agency how to pay what you want.

I disagree, to some extent.

If the client wants to talk about the rate they are paying the agency, listen up.  The more you know about the marketplace, the more power you have.

Exchange contract rate info with colleagues that you trust.  You need to trust them to give you accurate rate information, and to not misuse the rate information you give them.  If "Real Rates" was about anything, it was about this.  It's the lack of shared info about contractor rates that permit the agencies to continue to underpay new contracotrs.

Information is power.  More power to you.

[Origisaurus]

Good for you!  Especially for refusing the debriefing.  You are under no obligation to tell them how to place someone else in the slot.

You could have asked the guy you interviewed for the bill rate.  Even though there may be some non-disclosure stuff with the borque, he may have told you.  You could also ask if this is a new slot, and if not, what happened with your maybe predecessor.

Of course, it's quite unlikely that you will get a decent offer.

[ilconsiglliere]

I told the manager because I know a lot of these manager will go to the bork and slap them around if they really want someone. Been there and done that.

This consulting company was a real prize and if you do a search for their name on the web and scams they pop right out on G**gle. You read the profile on them and they really are a true body shop. They basically pluck kids right out of college and put them in this boiler room atmosphere where they are sitting there making cold calls all day long to hustle and pitch people whose resumes are out on the public web sites.

I kind of sensed this when I called as there was a lot of background noise like a trading floor. On the scams it said they bluntly low ball everyone to make as much margin as possible and twist arms to get you to do it. The recruiter was extremely fast talking, loud and obnoxious. Like a freaking used car salesman.

What I have noticed though is that the borks, the clients and others go through elaborate lengths to dehumanize the consultants nowadays. This vendor management organization (vmo) is the primary method to do this.

For example no contact between the manager and the agency, no contact between the consultant and the vmo - your only contact is the agency, no contact between the manager and the candidate without the vmo. They want it as cold and impersonal as possible so you are literally just a cog thats plug and play. No relationships of any kind and absolutely no humanity. You are a disposable and replaceable.

And of course there is the motivation to drive the rates through the floor and pay people as little as possible. Whats really interesting today is the relationships are totally one sided. The companies want to pay as little as possible and at the same time work you as hard as possible and give you NOTHING in return. No stability, lower pay. Its all about THEM.

Frankly based on that job description that place is a real pressure cooker. I dont care if they offer it to me or not. I am sure they will find someone else to take it who will leave just as soon as they find something else that pays more.

[The Gorn]

They are obviously a scumbag  but they are right about one thing.  You never discuss rates with the end client.  The rate is between you and the agency and should not be discussed with the client or anyone else, like another contractor, at the client.

This is the "purely professional" way to handle such issues. Normally I'd agree.

The way I see it, ilconsigliere was using every tool at his disposal as a weapon in negotiation, including the paid rate. Considering that body shops are the domain of the wild west, I really don't see what being strictly professional buys you. These guys would sell their nieces or grandmothers into white slavery. They have absolutely no standards. Unless some action gets you sued, I am not seeing the problem.

A few end clients actually care what the contractor is getting paid. Especially when the broker's margin sounds obnoxiously high. So this non transparency and information-hiding is a specious game.

[Walter Mitty]

A few end clients actually care what the contractor is getting paid. Especially when the broker's margin sounds obnoxiously high. So this non transparency and information-hiding is a specious game.

A little note of historical trivia.  DEC only began dealing with agencies after the IRS had threatend them for their 1099 dealings.  When they did, they insisted on knowing the contractor rate in advance.  And they had a policy on maximum uplift.  It was something like 23.5%.  If your uplift was more than that, DEC didn't buy from you.  Agencies that had an uplift of 50% or more with other clients either conformed to DEC's rules or looked for other clients.

The power of the purse.

[Origisaurus]

A few end clients actually care what the contractor is getting paid. Especially when the broker's margin sounds obnoxiously high. So this non transparency and information-hiding is a specious game.

It is often overlooked that rates are an essential part of setting expectations.  If the gap between what the client thinks he's paying for and what the contractor thinks the client expects is too great, the job will not go well.  Clients want to be confident that the contractor won't bail out at the first offer of more pay.  We, as contractors, want to be confident that the client's expectations are reasonable for the rate we are getting.

Ignoring that just may be the essence of Borquedom.

[The Gorn]

Right to both foregoing posts. Agencies that demand lack of transparency are ripping off someone, perhaps both parties. That's the core of the issue, and borks will cast it in any other way they can.

To get back to pxsant's point - which was you don't do this - I see it, and I don't. If I were dealing in virtually any other domain I would respect the interests of my primary front end contact.  In IT contracting it's quite different - it's high level professional work that has been wrapped up and presented as temporary labor against the will of the worker.

[ilconsiglliere]

In my experience any bork that is unwilling to share the billing rate or has low ball rates has something to hide. They are ALWAYS ripping someone off.

I dont have a problem with them making money per say but do have a problem making 40-50%+ margins on people. I am the one doing the interviewing, selling myself, landing the job, the one doing the work and the one that will be tortured if I dont deliver.

Why should I have to give you some obscene cut of the action. Granted its your position but that does not mean you are entitled to huge margins.

As for the clients they are playing both sides against the middle as well. The economy is bad and they know it so they are low balling everyone to see how far they can drive it and still get the work down.

But this will backfire on them in the end. Frankly if the consultant feels he is getting ripped off, at the first juicier opportunity he will jump ship and the client will be screwed. He will have to go to the same gyrations of placing the add, interviewing, on-boarding, bringing up to speed, etc... Its a hassle and costs money.

You would think it would behoove them to treat the consultants well because when you have to replace them it costs $$. But thats not what I am seeing, they are attempting to drive the rates even lower and the consulting companies are complicit in this. Instead of the consulting companies pushing back and saying xyz is too low for the market they are just go with it because they get their piece of flesh no matter whether its higher or lower.

The problem is the attrition rate is now self fulfilling. Companies are whining about the expertise walking out at the drop of a hat but at the same time they fail to look at their own actions in regard to this.

You guys saw the job description, you want 45/hour for all that? Are you out of your mind. You wont get anyone except someone whom is desperate and even than they will be looking to jump at the first opportunity that pays more.

BTW, I got a note from my office mate at m* b*ll the other day. He quit for another job. This is what he wrote and found it quit funny:

"So, the guy who took your seat lasted 9 weeks, you lasted 10 weeks and
I lasted 11 weeks.  Based on that sample set you can claim that you
stayed here an average length of time.  :-)"

[Origisaurus]

You would think it would behoove them to treat the consultants well because when you have to replace them it costs $$. But thats not what I am seeing, they are attempting to drive the rates even lower and the consulting companies are complicit in this. Instead of the consulting companies pushing back and saying xyz is too low for the market they are just go with it because they get their piece of flesh no matter whether its higher or lower.

Thing is, the client managers don't plan past coffee break, or in some exceptional cases, payday.  They've been told they will be held responsible for saving on contracting costs.  So they do that at the expense of project completion and overall costs.  Not their fault, they are giving management the numbers they want to see.

The challenge for the contractor is to get past that kaka and determine that the client will actually recognize and pay for the services the contractor can provide.

[unix]

You never know if what the bork tells you is true. They have no credibility and I don't believe anything they say.

I have never had any luck changing borks, no matter how much you argue / persuade. Your only leverage is another gig offer. It's the only language they understand.