Dealing with the Eastern culture of Secrecy

[The Gorn]

These Western countries are by and large Christian.  I maintain, as an agnostic, that the Christian ethic guides the secular ethos in the Western countries.

You know that I have absolutely no objection to that statement. Maybe I was keeping my statements too politically correct to make real sense. But you hit the nail square on the head.

It is interesting that Russia is Orthodox (Christian) but the country is gangsta territory nonetheless.

[Origisaurus]

It is interesting that Russia is Orthodox (Christian) but the country is gangsta territory nonetheless.

Although that is true to a nominal extent, the church and religious observances were suppressed for nearly 2 generations, and few went to church at all.

[The Gorn]

It is interesting that Russia is Orthodox (Christian) but the country is gangsta territory nonetheless.

Although that is true to a nominal extent, the church and religious observances were suppressed for nearly 2 generations, and few went to church at all.

I thought this was basically from 1917 through 1991. More like three to five generations, depending on how you count them.

You read and see about comebacks of organized and grass roots religion in the former SSRs but Russia is probably a special case for the impact of communism as a "creed".

[Aussie]

....the Mongol invasions from the East.  Kiev to the south was the centre of the Eastern Slavic culture at the time, but, being in the plains/steppes, it went down before the Golden Horde and was destroyed.  The town (town, not city) of Moscow to the north was protected to some extent by dense forests, impenetrable to the Khan's cavalry.  It became the preeminent focus of Slavic resistance.

In a nutshell.....Russia missed out on the Renaissance because it was under Mogol occupation.  The Russians to this day refer to this as the 'Tartar Yoke'.  Though their culture seemed to absorb some of the characteristics of the Horde.  They say, "Scratch a Russian, and underneath you'll find a Tartar'.

This was one of the reasons for the Russians eventual advancement to Vladivostok.  To advance up the invasion superhighway of the steppes, down which the Huns and Mongols, etc had driven westward into Europe, and dry up the invasive malignancy at its source.

[The Gorn]

....the Mongol invasions from the East.

There is a lot about the Russian national character that has nothing to do with western views of equality, fairness, civil rights, etc. and it always seemed to me to be rooted historically.

It seems to have never naturally occurred to Russians that they have a representative democracy, until the modern era, and that current fashion in my opinion is more about imitation of the "world concensus" than it is about an underlying instinct.

Russians understand force and power much better than mutual agreement.

In other words, a crappy Russian vendor wants to blackmail my client. And a crappy Russian mISV wants to steal my time by changing the deal. What's the problem, you take what's not yours, that seems to be the Russian way.

[Aussie]

"What's mine is mine.  What's yours is negotiable."

[expat]

ISTM that outside of the Western European/North American/Antipodean model, it is just standard behaviour to make use of any power you have in a way that you most prefer. The idea of fairness is just not relevant, usually the whole concept is not even understandable. Why accumulate power if you're not going to use it to the benefit of you and those you like or those who can help you? What's the point of being the boss if you can't make the decisions you want? And Moscow is very definitely on the wrong side of that geography.

[expat]

These Western countries are by and large Christian.  I maintain, as an agnostic, that the Christian ethic guides the secular ethos in the Western countries.

As an atheist, I think I agree with you there. Sometimes I think that in many senses, atheism and agnosticism are part of Christian culture. I know I look there for my ideas of right and wrong (or at least for their lucid expression).

[Peter Gibbons]

I personally think Unix's countrymen are shit to work with. No offense. I think you have "gone native" to the extent here in the US that you aren't as naturally predatory.

How subtle

Just for the record - I personally have always had very strong sense of fairness.
"Going native" haven't changed much about me in this area.

[The Gorn]

How subtle

Just for the record - I personally have always had very strong sense of fairness.
"Going native" haven't changed much about me in this area.

I meant that I tapped into a certain culture & way of doing business with these experiences.

My over the top statement sounded more nationalistic and perhaps racial than it was intended. I'm sorry if it sounded otherwise.  

I have had two really bad experiences with Russian based businesses that each felt like shakedowns. One was an obvious and unveiled attempt at actual extortion, of the sort that could get actual charges filed against a US based company.

That's the truth. Two experiences like this in a row. There was a style in dealing with each that was like "we don't care what you think you heard or even what we actually said, we now say that the deal is X."

There was a blatant disregard for the facts and for simple fairness that I have never encountered with the poorest and stupidest small company client in my US based work.

It's a matter of local culture, I'm sure.

Will I deal with another Russian company? HELL NO. That's the takeaway.