Dealing with the Eastern culture of Secrecy

[unix]

Worked a lot with people from Iran and India and noticed that they value secrecy, never tell you anything, you only find out post factum what's going on, when a knife is sticking from your back.

Case in point, took this gig in 2003 in Wash, DC at an absurdly low rate, 35K/year (after being out of work extensively). They cut the whole department a year later, yet it was sold to us as a "Full time" thing. Had I known it would go like this, I would have seriously reassessed it.

But it turns  out they knew all along, from day one, that the project would come to an end yet mislead us and then played like they were oh so surprised.

That was a company ran by Iranians. This one I am at now is controlled by Indians at every key level and it's the same thing.  Cannot trust anyone, there is always something going on behind your back, you find out at the very last minute. 

I think it's deeply ingrained in their culture, they see nothing wrong with that. It's the expected modus operandi.

Just found out my name was on the layoffs list a few months ago and was barely taken off by a supervisor who interfered. And there I was, working in ignorance about their schemes, completely oblivious to everything, oblivious to this ax over my head.  Surely leaves me with a warm feeling. I don't really have strong backers or even allies  here. Not really. Their have their own inner circle and if you are not a part of it, you are not protected species.  I will never get promoted. No raise for me for 2 years. Don't expect it this year, or ever. In corporate culture, it's good to find a "sponsor" in a higher position, who can push you forward. I don't really have strong relationships with them it seems, despite my attempts.

Favoritism is another one.  Ashok can go on vacation to India for 3-4 months while we are chocked with work. In fact, they had 2 people leave at the same time for a few months. Now I am not sure if it was paid or not, probably not, but I know I would never get away with this, it's 10 days for me max. It's sheer favoritism and nepotism.

[Richardk]

I've seen the same with vacations. Even if it's not paid, if I took that much time off the reply would be don't come back.

As for the secrecy, it's always been there just maybe they play it better. A personal story; I accepted a job many years back and relocated the whole family only to find out less than 3 months later I'd be looking for a new job. The owners were looking for a buyer for quite some time, wanting to cash out and retire. On the 'big day', the new owners were introduced and told us there would be no changes as we got a box to pack our stuff. Oh, everything changed and they moved the company cross country to their HQ.

During the interview, there was no mention of the company being for sale. After the sale, the code word was "no changes" while they prepared to dump everything since all they wanted was the IP and not the physical hard assets or even the customer base since it was their competition.

With some of these deals, it's hard to not feel like you're being lied to.

[David Randolph]

I've seen the same thing happen in American run companies. 

I would expect any contract in the Washington DC area to have a sudden death. That is a typical behavior for that area.

[PhilFromNY]

I've found that how a company views its customers is the best indication of how they treat their employees. If they deal with the customers in a straight forward manner then I have found that they deal with their employees honestly. Conversely if their policies to customers is to screw them then watch out if you work there. The same analogy can be made for mid-level managers in larger companies and how they deal with other departments.

True colors come out many ways.

[TRexx]

I've seen similar behavior in all kinds of companies regardless of who owns them.  I know several people who worked for IBM, were relocated 600 miles and 30 days later were laid off.    

My father worked for a defense contractor (part of the Singer Corp).  When a big contract was coming up for renewal, it was SOP for middle managers to hire extra people that they really didn't need. If they lost the contract, and upper management demanded a 10% (or worse) cut, they could fire those new hires and protect their core workers.


 

[Origisaurus]

When a company is up for sale, it could damage employee morale, possibly to the point of hurting the sale price.  Also, employees may say things to outsiders that may queer the deal.

So the lawyers say keep the employees in the dark.  Often this means a direct lie in answer to a specific question, which damages credibility, if not the liars' self-respect.

It's not just Asians or Lower Slobbovians.

[Aussie]

"It's not just Asians or Lower Slobbovians."

At least, if you're dealing with an American (or Australian) management clique, you have some chance of being among the inner circle.  With a India or East Asian one, you have no chance....you have the wrong blood in your veins.  "Piss off, imperialist Westerner".

Western society self-flagellates over motes while excusing plank-like behaviour in other cultures.  And our 'betters' wonder why there is such a degree of resentment out there.

[unix]

Western society self-flagellates over motes while excusing plank-like behaviour in other cultures.  And our 'betters' wonder why there is such a degree of resentment out there.

I think that Eastern cultures are incredibly clique-ish in addition to thriving on secrecy (vs trust and openess of the western business model).  This is not limited to India or Iran or Middle East.  For example some former Soviet Union republics are the same way. Armenia for example, or Georgia. You may want to verify their words. It's not that they lie, but how they present the facts and which facts they present.

I feel like I am in some medieval Indian kingdom with the caste system, which is alive and well BTW. They brought it here with them.  They discriminate against each other too.

[TRexx]

I think that Eastern cultures are incredibly clique-ish in addition to thriving on secrecy (vs trust and openess of the western business model).

This is nothing new and certainly not limited to Eastern cultures.  The fact is that many people want to work and associate with "people like us",  For decades, in the US, many occupations or businesses were dominated by specific ethnic groups and outsiders were politely (or not) told that they "need not apply".

[The Gorn]

Openness and transparency and fairness in business are mainly Anglo speaking and US characteristics. Most other cultures, particular when you get culturally far from Western Europe, have agendas, use deception, and have some overt racism at work in their view of how to deal with cultures unlike theirs.

And the US is a special case because we are the most diverse, multicultural population in the world. I think only the US and a few other western cultures actively, consciously strive to be fair and color/creed/nationality-blind in business dealings.

I also think that US people are shocked to learn the norm that prevails in other parts of the world, particularly emerging markets.

A couple of short anecdotes. A Russian based software tool vendor basically "threatened" my client with developing a competing product unless he licensed their library. I suspect that they were doing it to get a laugh, but it came off like an extortion attempt. And a Russian mISV screwed me by changing terms of a writing project and then blamed me for not accommodating them (being their doormat.)

I personally think Unix's countrymen are shit to work with. No offense. I think you have "gone native" to the extent here in the US that you aren't as naturally predatory.

[unix]

I knew one dude from Kazakhstan who specialized in exporting cars from US.

His business model went like this, he would get an order from there, say a new(ish) Lexus SUV, get 35K wired here. Let's say they go for 42K over there. So the buyer is saving a lot of FRNs.  He would get the funds, then find one at a dealer-only auction here, say for 32K. So he made 3K on this transaction (without telling the buyer the true cost) plus what the buyer would pay him, a few thousand.

He acted kind of like a typical IT broker.

On top of that, he would specialize in getting used cars with high mileage and rewind the odometer. Actually he wouldn't get involved in odometer stuff but his gang over there in Kazakhstan would do that. So a 2000 Honda with 150K would get 90K miles. They did all kinds of odometers, mechanical, digital, anything.

[The Gorn]

I knew one dude from Kazakhstan who specialized in exporting cars from US.
...
On top of that, he would specialize in getting used cars with high mileage and rewind the odometer. Actually he wouldn't get involved in odometer stuff but his gang over there in Kazakhstan would do that. So a 2000 Honda with 150K would get 90K miles. They did all kinds of odometers, mechanical, digital, anything.

Interesting anecdote, Unix.

I don't have a problem with the markup stuff. That's just standard bidness. The odometer rollback is thievery, plain and simple.

I gather that Russia is basically the wild west in terms of the tort system. What has amazed me is the level of chicanery in standard B2B transactions with those people.

[Aussie]

"Openness and transparency and fairness in business are mainly Anglo speaking and US characteristics."

Nah.  There are crooks and shysters in every nation.  I think what makes the US a more level playing field is the fairness and strength of the democracy and the Fourth Estate of the US.  The ability to mobilise public opinion to effectively take on the Rockefellers and all the President's Men of this world.

[The Gorn]

"Openness and transparency and fairness in business are mainly Anglo speaking and US characteristics."

Nah.  There are crooks and shysters in every nation.  I think what makes the US a more level playing field is the fairness and strength of the democracy and the Fourth Estate of the US.  The ability to mobilise public opinion to effectively take on the Rockefellers and all the President's Men of this world.

"Fourth Estate" - I always have to look something up when you post something. The press, got it.

I agree that you find crooks everywhere. I simply believe that the English speaking countries (I meant Australia too) and western Europe are unique for our legal code and our view of the rule of law.

[Origisaurus]

"Openness and transparency and fairness in business are mainly Anglo speaking and US characteristics."

Nah.  There are crooks and shysters in every nation.  I think what makes the US a more level playing field is the fairness and strength of the democracy and the Fourth Estate of the US.  The ability to mobilise public opinion to effectively take on the Rockefellers and all the President's Men of this world.

"Fourth Estate" - I always have to look something up when you post something. The press, got it.

I agree that you find crooks everywhere. I simply believe that the English speaking countries (I meant Australia too) and western Europe are unique for our legal code and our view of the rule of law.

These Western countries are by and large Christian.  I maintain, as an agnostic, that the Christian ethic guides the secular ethos in the Western countries.