Author Topic: Breibart's view of Women in IT  (Read 871 times)

benali72

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Breibart's view of Women in IT
« on: November 14, 2016, 08:05:25 AM »
Breibart News' view of Women in IT in expressed in the article  "There's No Hiring Bias Against Women in IT, They Just Suck at Interviews."

It concludes with this -- "Still, if this experiment proves anything, it’s what we all knew already — that being part of an allegedly oppressed group is actually an advantage."

Read it here -- http://www.breitbart.com/milo/2016/07/01/not-sexism-women-just-suck-interviews/

On Sunday, Trump appointed Steve Bannon, executive chairman of Breitbart News, his chief strategist and senior counselor. Should be interesting to see if Bannon shares this view of women in IT.

TechTalk

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Re: Breibart's view of Women in IT
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2016, 08:57:01 AM »
Imo, this experiment was flawed in that it needed to be run in various ways (i.e. several different experiments). Also, the use of voice changing software was the wrong approach to take. Imo, it would have been much better to use a one computer generated male (and one female) voice for the experiments.

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Re: Breibart's view of Women in IT
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2016, 12:48:26 PM »
The article references results done in an experiment by a company that was trying to prove there was bias against women. The experiment failed, proving there wasn't a bias.

Blaming Breitbart for the results of a study they didn't do? Seriously?

Study showed the problem is women suck at interviews. So to fix the problem, women need to get better at interviews. Easy enough to address. You can have role playing and classes in negotiation strategies and such and encourage women to take them if they want to improve.

Or stay in denial, cry like a baby about victimhood.

My mother kicked ass and was awesome in interviews. She was able to figure it out. Ivanka Trump is also kicking ass in a man's world. It's not that women can't do it, they don't know how. That's the problem. Not systematic bias.

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Re: Breibart's view of Women in IT
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2016, 01:26:16 PM »
It's not that women can't do it, they don't know how. That's the problem. Not systematic bias.

It's so easy to fall back on the discrimination card. I've always been terrible at interviews and presenting myself. I blame myself for that. No aggrieved group membership was available for me to claim, except maybe dumbass Irish.
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Re: Breibart's view of Women in IT
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2016, 01:27:06 PM »
Or Reptilian space monster...

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Re: Breibart's view of Women in IT
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2016, 01:37:13 PM »
Or Reptilian space monster...

Real Gorn can always take care of themselves.

This is actually a rubber suit that I can't remove.
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JoFrance

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Re: Breibart's view of Women in IT
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2016, 01:39:59 PM »
I never personally had a problem in an IT interview and I'm a woman.  I think the study is ridiculous.  Sometimes Milo posts things that are somewhat humorous on Breitbart.  He has Dangerous Faggot tours on his own.  He's a personality.

Steve Bannon has nothing to do with any of this.


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Re: Breibart's view of Women in IT
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2016, 12:42:50 AM »
Milo didn't make it up. Here's the experiment he is summarizing.

http://blog.interviewing.io/we-built-voice-modulation-to-mask-gender-in-technical-interviews-heres-what-happened/

They have a site that allows remote interviewing, has live audio chat, and has white boards and code editors built in. They noticed men were advancing on the site more than women and thought the women were discriminated by their voice. So they built software to switch gender on the audio. And when they did, they found that the perceived gender wasn't what was affecting the outcome, it was the actual performance. So it wasn't the voice and the perception of the interviewer of the gender, it was the rest of it, the actual handling of the interview. This was done in practice interviews where people rate others.

They note that a possible reason for fewer women in CS is they are more likely to give up than men after a set back, showing their data that women are 7x more likely than men to leave their web site and not come back after a failed interview. The study then inexplicably concludes that the answer to this is we need to get 10x as many women into CS degrees as we do now to compensate for attrition due to giving up.

I think their conclusion is not reasonable. It's saying essentially "Women are just more likely to give up than men, there's nothing we can do about that, so let's throw more women at the problem, 10x more in fact". Why isn't there anything that can be done about that.

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Re: Breibart's view of Women in IT
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2016, 01:47:49 PM »
I admit that first post to this thread was a little premature. I sort of got hung up on the title of the article "There's No Hiring Bias Against Women in IT, They Just Suck at Interviews". Yes, I do believe that for a pure heads down coding position (i.e. 8 hours a day, 5 days a week) women are generally not going to perform as well as men do for those type of job positions because they are primarily being judged on their technical knowledge/skills. Those type of job positions (e.g. start-ups, working for a body shop, Microsoft, Amazon, etc.) are definitely going to be dominated by males and are also where the H-1B females tend to get placed.

Traditionally, women have gravitated more towards IT job roles which require other skills as well. For example, I remember reading some of the posts made on this forum from a person who used to post here (Carrie COBOL). She seemed to me to have other skills besides just knowing how to write applications for mainframe computers (e.g. social skills, business domain knowledge, etc.). I do vaguely remember her posting some of her observations about what it was like for her when she transitioned from being a coder to a business analyst, but I do not remember how she felt about role shift (e.g. more happier vs. less happier).

JoFrance

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Re: Breibart's view of Women in IT
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2016, 03:58:55 PM »
CR, I think Milo was mocking the study. I don't blame him.  Studies like this are just absurd.

I was in IT for a long time in the networking and management areas.  I didn't see the bias against women in IT in any job I had.  I was as into it as men were and my peers accepted me as their equal.  We worked together for the common goal.  I did whatever it took to keep the network going and they did too.

Most women are not cut out for the real nitty gritty IT field.  I loved it.  I've only known three other women that were into computer networking and CS.  That's it for my entire 25 year IT career.  I've worked with a few women programmers on different projects, but mostly all men.  Women aren't attracted to the field because the job is too demanding.  If you're in IT, you're on call for your projects.  Women take care of children, mostly, aside from having a job or provide elder care.  No matter what they do, an IT job in computer networking isn't going to work with the other demands in their life.

 

David Randolph

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Re: Breibart's view of Women in IT
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2016, 06:11:03 AM »
Let me post some ideas.

If the job requires acting like a immature male, then the interviewing process is working to select the right people for the job.

If the job requires being on call 24x7 and jumping immediately when called, then anyone with any adult responsibilities is not the right person for the job. It needs slave labor not adult workers.

The real question is not if the interview process is selecting out women, but whether the job is correctly designed to provide the service that is really needed by the employer.
I submit that the job is incorrectly designed. If it were better designed to fit the real needs, it would attract more women - because it would be more balanced.

TechTalk

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Re: Breibart's view of Women in IT
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2016, 11:44:54 AM »
Quote
I submit that the job is incorrectly designed. If it were better designed to fit the real needs, it would attract more women - because it would be more balanced

Sorry, but I do not have a clue as to what point you were trying to make with your post.  ???

I do agree that woman would probably interview just as well if not better in a job where the criteria is more than just how good are your technical skills using a particular technology stack.

What many people who have worked in the IT industry seem to always ignore or fail to understand is that "the right person for the job" is an arbitrary thing because each individual employer has to make that determination. There are no so-called industry standards that a particular company can use to base minimum job qualifications on. Hence you have job titles (e.g. programmer, developer, programmer/analyst, product manager, project manager, ...) that tend to be meaningless outside of a particular business or business industry. Also, some companies will only hire people who have a Computer Science degree, others will only hire someone that has any type of college degree, and some will hire people with no degree. Blah, blah, blah...

My point is that many employers have always been fishing in a large lake where the species of fish that they wish to catch is either very rare or does not exist within that lake. There will always be a skills shortage and fraud (i.e. an excuse to use work visa labor) in this country when many companies are looking for special snowflakes that just so happen to match their company specific requirements.

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Re: Breibart's view of Women in IT
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2016, 12:25:38 PM »
Quote
I submit that the job is incorrectly designed. If it were better designed to fit the real needs, it would attract more women - because it would be more balanced

Sorry, but I do not have a clue as to what point you were trying to make with your post.  ???

He's saying that all IT careers are a terrible fit for anyone who values their life outside work!

His point was absolutely clear to me.
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Re: Breibart's view of Women in IT
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2016, 01:28:43 PM »
That and most IT jobs are not correctly designed for what the business really needs.

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Re: Breibart's view of Women in IT
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2016, 02:55:18 PM »
Quote
He's saying that all IT careers are a terrible fit for anyone who values their life outside work!

Okay, got it. That said, it is the same for just any type of salaried position (e.g. doctors, investment bankers, management consultants, etc.). If a person is mostly interested in work/life balance then he/she needs to find some type of hourly job that pays well.

Quote
That and most IT jobs are not correctly designed for what the business really needs.

Still not getting it. When you have the time, please provide some examples of how IT jobs are incorrectly designed and how you believe they should be designed.